Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[Elysium]

AW111 said:

A serious question which I hope can be answered without a descent into tribalism -

Has anyone here met a person who admits to being racist or xenophobic? I think (giving them the benefit of the doubt) that they honestly don't see themselves as racist.

I am in another country, but even the most racist guy at work woukd preface his bigoted remarks with "I'm not racist but..."

Exactly, I would define racism as a belief in negative ethnic stereotypes.

Being racist is a 'spectrum' thing. At one end there are people who are willing to openly state racist views at the other end you have people who privately hold views that they are probably aware are racist and they know they should not express them. Most of our society is on it somewhere and that isn't limited just to white people.

Prejudice largely stems from ignorance. When people do not know or spend time with other ethnic groups, then they rely on stereotypes to understand them. When those are negative or even unflattering it becomes racism.

i have seen an outwardly friendly nice Christian guy inadvertently show a hidden racist view by telling an Indian friend of mine that a local garage "is run by Indians, but actually alright". This sort of thing happens all the time and most people don't mean any harm. They just hold these views (to an extent) in private and sometimes forget who they are talking too.

The UKIP lady in the video I posted who disliked an ethnic group because of their appearance is not that unusual. She was just stupid enough to say that publicly. Probably because the people she associates with hold similar views.

The problem with racism is that it has become a very serious accusation, reserved for the most serious situations where people actively discriminate against others to reduce their opportunities. It is a wider issue than that and I think it is inherent in human nature.

Anyway apologies for wandering totally off topic.

[FiF]

AW111 said:

A serious question which I hope can be answered without a descent into tribalism -

Has anyone here met a person who admits to being racist or xenophobic? I think (giving them the benefit of the doubt) that they honestly don't see themselves as racist.

I am in another country, but even the most racist guy at work woukd preface his bigoted remarks with "I'm not racist but..."

I don't think I've ever met anyone who openly admitted to being racist, although back in the 70s I did rent some rooms out to a couple of probationer bobbies, one was a Saffer and had some, err, interesting statements.

The only person I can think of today is an elderly relative, dotty 80odd year old, she doesn't realise some of the things she says are a bit whiffy, but to balance that some of it appears to come from having to use Rotherham taxis.

As an offshoot, whilst some of the stuff he says can be a bit out there, not keen to see the rancid comments against Dan Hodges on the thread, the only person I know who has suffered life changing injuries from literally fighting against racism. For those who don't know, he tackled some guys making a racist attack, got severely beaten up for intervening, resulted in losing his sight in one eye.

[AW111]

bmw535i said:

Why, what would happen?

That's what I'd be paying to find out .

My slightly tongue-in-cheek point was that don is as bigoted in his stereotyping of "all lefties are tree-hugging loons" as ///ajd is with his "all kippers are racist".

[cirian75]

bmw535i said:

cirian75 said:

until the build up to the 23rd most of them kept their mouths shut because they knew society would not stand for it, now however.

According to some anecdotal evidence.

Are you saying society now tolerates racism?

No it does not, but the government is doing nothing it seems to stop it, and at the moment suits their purposes to create fear in MP's and Lords since Jo Cox's murder.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/17/mps-spe...

[Elysium]

cirian75 said:

bmw535i said:

cirian75 said:

until the build up to the 23rd most of them kept their mouths shut because they knew society would not stand for it, now however.

According to some anecdotal evidence.

Are you saying society now tolerates racism?

No it does not, but the government is doing nothing it seems to stop it, and at the moment suits their purposes to create fear in MP's and Lords since Jo Cox's murder.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/17/mps-spe...

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

[anonymous-user]

cirian75 said:

No it does not, but the government is doing nothing it seems to stop it, and at the moment suits their purposes to create fear in MP's and Lords since Jo Cox's murder.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/17/mps-spe...

Well they seem to be doing something - see the link I posted this morning

[anonymous-user]

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

Do you think any immigrants hold racist views towards British people?

[alock]

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

I think a lot of people who hold perfectly reasonable views now feel they can express them publicly without caring about being called a racist.

It is the fear of being called a racist that has diminished. For too long it has been a term used to stifle debate. It has been over-used. 10 years ago I would have taken offense at being called a racist. Now it's more likely that the accuser is the one with the problem.

[paul789]

Cobnapint said:

Rich_W said:

Am I the only person that feels that no matter what the Government does we have very little control over Hard or Soft Brexit?

That essentially the fools in Brussels will do everything they can to go extreme Brexit. Even if it means damaging themselves in the process.

No, you are not. You are quite correct.

There is one thing, and one thing only, thats going to drive Brussels negotiating position - preventing anybody else from even daring to dream of having their own EU Referendum.

Merkel is willing to take any hit on German car sales, just to keep the union together. That is THE priority, there is no other. Britain can go and fk itself - there will be no slack given whatsoever.

And this is why we have to go. If they're going to be motivated by spite and hartred them let them try their worst. They may wish for us to sink but there are certain strengths we have that mean we'll still be around, punching well above our weight and being a major irritation for our former partners:

Permie UN sec council member.
Nuclear armed country.
Strong intelligence capability.
Weakened but still formidable defences forces (special forces in particular)
Still, for now, global banking hub.
The soft power of our culture, language and heritage

The German establishment have always wanted us to yield on bended knee.

Let's see how this pans out.

[B'stard Child]

bmw535i said:

AW111 said:

He's left now, but gems included

I'm not racist but..

All Indians stink and talk that jibber-jabber.
All abos (his word) are drunken lazy thieves.
All towelheads (his word) are religious nutters and should be thrown out of the country.

Need I go on?

He sounds racist. That doesn't mean all people who say they aren't racists are.

I'm inclined to agree

It's also the opposite that can be true people that claim to be "racist" really aren't - the person I'm thinking of would "label" himself as racist in company but really isn't - he's just outspoken regarding the mess this country is in with regard to being politically correct - so he's very un PC as a backlash.... He dislikes pretty much everyone regardless of colour or creed....

[alfie2244]

AW111 said:

A serious question which I hope can be answered without a descent into tribalism -

Has anyone here met a person who admits to being racist or xenophobic? I think (giving them the benefit of the doubt) that they honestly don't see themselves as racist.

I am in another country, but even the most racist guy at work woukd preface his bigoted remarks with "I'm not racist but..."

I was there so does this count as meeting a "so called racist" person that led a racist party ?

Please tell me how it compares with what the other parties say about racism....Oz gets a mention


https://youtu.be/pHAqYmHFH_Q

eta Don't suppose many of the detractors / accusers will actually watch it all.

[alfie2244]

alock said:

I think a lot of people who hold perfectly reasonable views now feel they can express them publicly without caring about being called a racist.

It is the fear of being called a racist that has diminished. For too long it has been a term used to stifle debate. It has been over-used. 10 years ago I would have taken offense at being called a racist. Now it's more likely that the accuser is the one with the problem.

[don4l]

bmw535i said:

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

Do you think any immigrants hold racist views towards British people?

I don't.

However, I cannot claim to speak for all immigrants.

[Mrr T]

don4l said:

bmw535i said:

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

Do you think any immigrants hold racist views towards British people?

I don't.

However, I cannot claim to speak for all immigrants.

You are not an immigrant.

[Elysium]

don4l said:

bmw535i said:

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

Do you think any immigrants hold racist views towards British people?

I don't.

However, I cannot claim to speak for all immigrants.

I am sure some do. In my experience though it is more common for immigrants to hold racists views about other immigrants.

As an example, there is an area of Birmingham which has relatively poor quality, cheap housing. As a result it was unpopular with the locals in the 1970's. At that time Hindus were coming to the UK and they began to form a community there. Many of their children have 'done well' in life and as a result they have started to move to nicer areas. Muslims from Pakistan have followed in their footsteps and now they are also starting to move to better areas.

The latest wave of immigrants are Somali and I know a number of Muslim and Hindu people who resent the influx of Somalis who they feel are wrecking the area.

For me this represents the problem of immigration in a microcosm. And of course, whilst all of this has gone on, a number of locals have continued to live there and I am sure many resent the success that some of the immigrants have had and the fact that their community continues to change as a result.

[Elysium]

alock said:

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

I think a lot of people who hold perfectly reasonable views now feel they can express them publicly without caring about being called a racist.

It is the fear of being called a racist that has diminished. For too long it has been a term used to stifle debate. It has been over-used. 10 years ago I would have taken offense at being called a racist. Now it's more likely that the accuser is the one with the problem.

I agree. I think people have kept quiet about problems because they have felt that even discussing them would be considered to be racist.

I do not believe for one moment that it is racist to want immigration controls.

UKIPs difficulty is that people who do hold racist views are naturally keen to join such debates. I don't think they did enough to dissuade those people from joining the party in its early days. That held them back from the mainstream.

They have tackled this well more recently, but I suspect this has driven their racist supporters underground rather than encouraging them to leave. Regardless, as a single issue party, focusing on this subject, I don't honestly think there is any more they could do.

[Derek Smith]

AW111 said:

That was never my contention. My point was that some (many?) racists not only say they aren't racist, they genuinely believe they aren't racist.
I am not making this claim about anyone on this thread, just asking for others' experience, and you have replied on-topic (thanks) that you have met someone who says they are racist, which has not been my experience so far.

To avoid being sidetracked into "PC virtue signalling" arguments, I work in factories, and drink in a pretty rough pub, so not exactly "elite liberal PC snowflake" environments .

The "lefties" up the pub are more of the "all bosses are bds" type than metropolitan elites - if don4l were to try his "wind up the lefties" shtick there I'd pay to watch .

I've seen a lot of people who would say, 'I've got nothing against gays/I've got a gay friend/I'm a firm believer in live and let live' and then come out with the most homophobic comments I've ever heard. I've had little experience of racist comments in the same vein, but I would assume there is a similar situation there.

I'm certain that those who came out with anti gay diatribes honestly believed that weren't being homophobic. I found it a bit odd as well as depressing.

[anonymous-user]

bmw535i said:

Elysium said:

I think some people in society, who hold racist views, are seeing Brexit and Trump as signs that is now OK to voice them.

I don't believe that those views are being tolerated any more than they were.

Do you think any immigrants hold racist views towards British people?

Say they do. So what?

[anonymous-user]

Greg66 said:

Say they do. So what?

I was just wondering if elysium thought they did. Which was answered very well.

[AW111]

alfie2244 said:

I was there so does this count as meeting a "so called racist" person that led a racist party ?

Please tell me how it compares with what the other parties say about racism....Oz gets a mention


https://youtu.be/pHAqYmHFH_Q

eta Don't suppose many of the detractors / accusers will actually watch it all.

That does not answer my question.
I am not playing the "person x is/isn't a racist" game, I am asking if anyone knows / has met a racist who considered themself a racist.

re Derek's post, I do know someone who finds the idea of homosexualty disagreeable and "wrong", although he disapproves strongly of discrimination based on sexual preferences - in his words "this probably makes me homophobic".