Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)
Discussion
///ajd said:
I can't think of any EU law that we should repeal - or at least I can't think of any that the UK H&S & red tape mafia wouldn't impose on the UK in any case.
I've always held out that our own home-grown Government are particularly good at bringing in unnecessary 'rules-is-rules' compliance/legislation to the point that the stuff from the EU is harmless in comparison.There's no other country in the world can breed a 'bottom-inspector' like the UK can...
///ajd said:
You won't be massively surprised that I struggle to find any benefits of Brexit:
Political : No, better off in, part of Europe, with influence, plus our ability to influence the EU plays into our influence of the US, amongst others. Furthermore, the tory government who (stupid referendum aside) were not doing a bad job - moderate/steady on the economy etc. have been replaced by dictatorial right wingers who threaten to make such a mess of brexit than even Corbyn might get in. There is nothing good here. A Corbyn government would be a disaster - I always thought him completely unelectable, but brexit could be such a shambles people (ironically) will just demand change!
Economic / trade : No, even if we stay in the SM, our influence over EU direction will be limited and we may be unable to prevent/protect ourselves from changes driven by the EU that adversely affect our our economy. If we leave the SM we may impact our GDP severely and directly through loss of business migrating to SM. There are potentially benefits of being able to negotiate trade deals if we leave the external tariff, but I've yet to see a convincing case that outweighs the negatives of leaving the SM. I find the "new trade deal" argument very unconvincing, but its true this gives more freedom. The free trade discussions with India are linked to FMOL though......
Immigration : FMOL is something I've taken benefit from, so want to see it continue as a right for myself and my kids. I have no real issue with immigration in the UK. Most of the significant integration issues seems to stem from religions related to non-EU nations - not that I'm saying the challenges in this area are a reason to block it. The scale of non-EU immigration (higher than from EU) suggests we will still let a lot of immigrants in anyway for work reasons, even if we have "control". We need them, and we benefit from them. Brexit only risks implementing hugely expensive further controls and thousands of civil servants to maybe reduce immigration by a few percent.
Sovereignty : We already have this as we are now proving on a day to day basis. I can't think of any EU law that we should repeal - or at least I can't think of any that the UK H&S & red tape mafia wouldn't impose on the UK in any case.
Currency: errm.
Wage inequality: There maybe a very slight improvement in low paid wages, but I consider this will be outwieghed by the general negative impact on GDP, and the ability of the UK to fund services. Hence less NHS etc. leaving everyone worse off, even with an e.g. 0.5% increase in low skilled wages.
Etc.
Any other perspectives that from your list of 273 reasons that you think will make me see a positive?
Two cheerleader pics, and we're getting reasoned debate and no handbags (I'm not just referring to ///ajd).Political : No, better off in, part of Europe, with influence, plus our ability to influence the EU plays into our influence of the US, amongst others. Furthermore, the tory government who (stupid referendum aside) were not doing a bad job - moderate/steady on the economy etc. have been replaced by dictatorial right wingers who threaten to make such a mess of brexit than even Corbyn might get in. There is nothing good here. A Corbyn government would be a disaster - I always thought him completely unelectable, but brexit could be such a shambles people (ironically) will just demand change!
Economic / trade : No, even if we stay in the SM, our influence over EU direction will be limited and we may be unable to prevent/protect ourselves from changes driven by the EU that adversely affect our our economy. If we leave the SM we may impact our GDP severely and directly through loss of business migrating to SM. There are potentially benefits of being able to negotiate trade deals if we leave the external tariff, but I've yet to see a convincing case that outweighs the negatives of leaving the SM. I find the "new trade deal" argument very unconvincing, but its true this gives more freedom. The free trade discussions with India are linked to FMOL though......
Immigration : FMOL is something I've taken benefit from, so want to see it continue as a right for myself and my kids. I have no real issue with immigration in the UK. Most of the significant integration issues seems to stem from religions related to non-EU nations - not that I'm saying the challenges in this area are a reason to block it. The scale of non-EU immigration (higher than from EU) suggests we will still let a lot of immigrants in anyway for work reasons, even if we have "control". We need them, and we benefit from them. Brexit only risks implementing hugely expensive further controls and thousands of civil servants to maybe reduce immigration by a few percent.
Sovereignty : We already have this as we are now proving on a day to day basis. I can't think of any EU law that we should repeal - or at least I can't think of any that the UK H&S & red tape mafia wouldn't impose on the UK in any case.
Currency: errm.
Wage inequality: There maybe a very slight improvement in low paid wages, but I consider this will be outwieghed by the general negative impact on GDP, and the ability of the UK to fund services. Hence less NHS etc. leaving everyone worse off, even with an e.g. 0.5% increase in low skilled wages.
Etc.
Any other perspectives that from your list of 273 reasons that you think will make me see a positive?
Or was it the Katie Hopkins pic wot done it?
What if the government go ahead with this 16 word proposal. Serious question, do people think enough MP's would vote to stop Article 50? Apart from the obvious (Lib Dem, SNP) I imagine the majority vote would be to grant A50 as many of the MP's (Labour in particular) would be terrified of voting against their constituents will, in many cases 2 to 1 to leave.
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Not trying to be antagonistic but what exactly can't you wait for? There isn't a plan for what Brexit means yet.
To leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
AW111 said:
Two cheerleader pics, and we're getting reasoned debate and no handbags (I'm not just referring to ///ajd).
Or was it the Katie Hopkins pic wot done it?
I'm hoping we can continue without chucking the "R" word in every second post because it's pretty clear that gets us absolutely nowhereOr was it the Katie Hopkins pic wot done it?
I guess the big red bus might get a few more mentions at least that was real....
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
B'stard Child said:
I'm hoping we can continue without chucking the "R" word in every second post because it's pretty clear that gets us absolutely nowhere
I guess the big red bus might get a few more mentions at least that was real....
Why is the colour of the bus so important to you?I guess the big red bus might get a few more mentions at least that was real....
p1stonhead said:
Talk about you being a cliche head in the sand leave voter! Brexit means Brexit!
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
The only thing we know is that we're leaving the EU. This has been covered many many many many many many many man man ma ma m m m mmmmm zzzzzzzzzzzYou have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
My main point was just that no one knows if any of this will come to pass as predictably it looks like the government is running around like headless chickens. So being 'excited' for something we have no details of isn't logical. It's impossible.
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
My main point was just that no one knows if any of this will come to pass as predictably it looks like the government is running around like headless chickens. So being 'excited' for something you have no details of isn't logical.
AW111 said:
B'stard Child said:
I'm hoping we can continue without chucking the "R" word in every second post because it's pretty clear that gets us absolutely nowhere
I guess the big red bus might get a few more mentions at least that was real....
Why is the colour of the bus so important to you?I guess the big red bus might get a few more mentions at least that was real....
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
My main point was just that no one knows if any of this will come to pass as predictably it looks like the government is running around like headless chickens. So being 'excited' for something you have no details of isn't logical.
If TM came out and said ' we have crunched the numbers and leaving means £10,000 tax to everyone in the country' - please send us a cheque', I wonder if 535i would be 'excited'?
Obviously a ridiculous example but a valid point that no one knows what the hell they voted for. I'm cautious in the extreme as to what either of the bloody options actually means.
That those leading us through this clearly don't know (or we wouldn't be 6 months down the line and fighting about it in court) is laughable.
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
My main point was just that no one knows if any of this will come to pass as predictably it looks like the government is running around like headless chickens. So being 'excited' for something you have no details of isn't logical.
If TM came out and said ' we have crunched the numbers and leaving means £10,000 tax to everyone in the country' - please send us a cheque', I wonder if 535i would be 'excited'?
Obviously a ridiculous example but a valid point that no one knows what the hell they voted for. I'm cautious in the extreme as to what either of the bloody options actually means.
That those leading us through this clearly don't know (or we wouldn't be 6 months down the line and fighting about it in court) is laughable.
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
My main point was just that no one knows if any of this will come to pass as predictably it looks like the government is running around like headless chickens. So being 'excited' for something you have no details of isn't logical.
If TM came out and said ' we have crunched the numbers and leaving means £10,000 tax to everyone in the country' - please send us a cheque', I wonder if 535i would be 'excited'?
Obviously a ridiculous example but a valid point that no one knows what the hell they voted for. I'm cautious in the extreme as to what either of the bloody options actually means.
That those leading us through this clearly don't know (or we wouldn't be 6 months down the line and fighting about it in court) is laughable.
bmw535i said:
///ajd said:
If I'm wrong about all the above, I'll be happy!
So like you say, I'll be pretty disappointed soon enough.
Its a clusterfck, isn't it!
No, I can't wait. It's all good.So like you say, I'll be pretty disappointed soon enough.
Its a clusterfck, isn't it!
p1stonhead said:
Of course it can but it wasn't me who said I was excited about either one.
If TM came out and said ' we have crunched the numbers and leaving means £10,000 tax to everyone in the country' - please send us a cheque', I wonder if 535i would be 'excited'?
Obviously a ridiculous example but a valid point that no one knows what the hell they voted for. I'm cautious in the extreme as to what either of the bloody options actually means.
That those leading us through this clearly don't know (or we wouldn't be 6 months down the line and fighting about it in court) is laughable.
We need a strong leader with a clear vision. There isn't one. If TM came out and said ' we have crunched the numbers and leaving means £10,000 tax to everyone in the country' - please send us a cheque', I wonder if 535i would be 'excited'?
Obviously a ridiculous example but a valid point that no one knows what the hell they voted for. I'm cautious in the extreme as to what either of the bloody options actually means.
That those leading us through this clearly don't know (or we wouldn't be 6 months down the line and fighting about it in court) is laughable.
The court case for article 50 should've been done and dusted with a - no need for parliament because it'll only delay the inevitable. We all know article 50 is getting triggered. Anyone delaying it, for whatever reason, will be viewed with contempt by many.
I just wish our government were bold and had a single voice and direction. Unfortunately there are too many vested interests in high places where some kind of single market and money going to the eu will benefit them directly.
Imagine the clarity in taking a position which was we will work with you not for you.
Also, can anyone name any political leaders they have failed so catastrophically and not been forced to resign? Junker and Tusk have their 2nd largest contributor decide to leave! Surely this must make your position untenable!
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
John145 said:
p1stonhead said:
bmw535i said:
p1stonhead said:
Which means specifically?
It means that we leave the EU.- don't answer that its rhetorical as you (or any of us) don't know the answer.
Edited by p1stonhead on Monday 5th December 21:27
You have no idea what leaving the EU means unless you are psychic.
Free movement? Single market?
Please enlighten us!
I know it sounds like a crazy idea but free trade should be free. We shouldn't pay the EU for their version of free trade. If that means we aren't in the single market so be it. If that means tariffs, so be it. Free trade is free. It isn't paying beaurocrats a 9 figure sum per week.
Then we can also have a flexible government which can react to world events decisively.
My main point was just that no one knows if any of this will come to pass as predictably it looks like the government is running around like headless chickens. So being 'excited' for something you have no details of isn't logical.
If TM came out and said ' we have crunched the numbers and leaving means £10,000 tax to everyone in the country' - please send us a cheque', I wonder if 535i would be 'excited'?
Obviously a ridiculous example but a valid point that no one knows what the hell they voted for. I'm cautious in the extreme as to what either of the bloody options actually means.
That those leading us through this clearly don't know (or we wouldn't be 6 months down the line and fighting about it in court) is laughable.
bmw535i said:
///ajd said:
If I'm wrong about all the above, I'll be happy!
So like you say, I'll be pretty disappointed soon enough.
Its a clusterfck, isn't it!
No, I can't wait. It's all good.So like you say, I'll be pretty disappointed soon enough.
Its a clusterfck, isn't it!
You're the one who said you were excited about what leaving means followed by saying "it wasn't me who said I was excited" a few posts later.
Comical but unsurprising.
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