Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[London424]

blindswelledrat said:

Fastdruid said:

They knew what it would mean if the vote was for leave. It was perfectly clear when debated in the Commons exactly what the referendum meant. It was handing over the decision to the public.

I have some sympathy for the viewpoint of "we shouldn't have had the referendum in the first place" (although I disagree) but those not wanting to leave had their chance to stop it.

Is this true? I cant remember how the referendum came about but my recollection is that it was simply Cameron who decided it as a vote winner.
This insinuation that all the MPs agreed with the referendum therefor should accept the result is not how my memory has it.

They all debated it and then had a vote on whether it would be a good idea or not...they voted 6:1 to have a referendum!

[confused_buyer]

blindswelledrat said:

Is this true? I cant remember how the referendum came about but my recollection is that it was simply Cameron who decided it as a vote winner.
This insinuation that all the MPs agreed with the referendum therefor should accept the result is not how my memory has it.

The decision to have a referendum was overwhelmingly supported by MPs. Even the LibDems voted for it. The only party which didn't was the SNP and maybe the SDLP.

You don't need to remember it - it is clearly on record.

[anonymous-user]

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

[williamp]

blindswelledrat said:

Fastdruid said:

They knew what it would mean if the vote was for leave. It was perfectly clear when debated in the Commons exactly what the referendum meant. It was handing over the decision to the public.

I have some sympathy for the viewpoint of "we shouldn't have had the referendum in the first place" (although I disagree) but those not wanting to leave had their chance to stop it.

Is this true? I cant remember how the referendum came about but my recollection is that it was simply Cameron who decided it as a vote winner.
This insinuation that all the MPs agreed with the referendum therefor should accept the result is not how my memory has it.

The tory manifesto included a promise to hold a refernedum. Once in power under Cameron the MP's voted to have a "simple in/out referendum". The idea to have a referendum was agreed by a majority of 6:1, so not all MP's, but a large majority and comfoertably enough to go through

We were told multiple times that the government will respect ther wishes of the people and enact on our decision.

[CaptainSlow]

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

There wasn't a vote on the terms of Remaining either.

[Fastdruid]

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

Indeed and this is why I agree that those *should* be debated (which they are already) and agreed in parliament (which they will be when the "leaving the EU act" is voted on).

I am in total agreement that the PM shouldn't "just do something" without the agreement of Parliament but in the very specific case of A.50 however IMO that already has been debated and agreed by way of the referendum itself.

In hindsight maybe it would have been better to have written that the PM would be able to trigger A.50 into the referendum act but at the time I don't think anyone actually believed that the vote would end up with a result of "leave"!

[don4l]

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

[chrispmartha]

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Well as much as you like to think you do, you don't speak for everyone that voted leave.

[Pan Pan Pan]

All this dicking around by those who don't want to accept the result of the 23rd June referendum, puts me in mind of a fight video on yootube, named `Show off gets knocked out while showing off' where the bloke with the short hair represents the leave side of the argument, and the bloke with the long hair that of the remain side.
Just a bit of light entertainment to break the tedium of trying to explain to the remain side, that in the referendum the leave side had a majority over the remain side, and all their dicking around is no more than an attempt by them to subvert the wishes of the democratic majority.

[AW111]

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Except you clearly do give a damn, given your railings against the single market and "brexit means brexit" mantra.

[Camoradi]

chrispmartha said:

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Well as much as you like to think you do, you don't speak for everyone that voted leave.

I don't agree with Don that leave voters don't give a damn, but by definition it could not be possible to vote in advance on the terms of leaving, as the other members of the EU have influence over that, so anything offered in advance could be vetoed later. Even now the UK cannot unilaterally decide the terms on which we leave.

What leave voters did indicate is that they were willing to take their chances outside of the EU, understanding that the way forward was unclear. There was not, and cannot be, any certainty for the future, but this would be equally true inside the EU.

[don4l]

AW111 said:

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Except you clearly do give a damn, given your railings against the single market and "brexit means brexit" mantra.

I haven't railed against the single market. I'm all in favour of free trade.

I don't like the idea of political union or unnecessary regulation.

[chrispmartha]

Camoradi said:

chrispmartha said:

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Well as much as you like to think you do, you don't speak for everyone that voted leave.

I don't agree with Don that leave voters don't give a damn, but by definition it could not be possible to vote in advance on the terms of leaving, as the other members of the EU have influence over that, so anything offered in advance could be vetoed later. Even now the UK cannot unilaterally decide the terms on which we leave.

What leave voters did indicate is that they were willing to take their chances outside of the EU, understanding that the way forward was unclear. There was not, and cannot be, any certainty for the future, but this would be equally true inside the EU.

I agree, I voted Remain but obviously think we should Leave as that is democracy, however it should be done correctly, legally and with the whole country in mind not just those that want out at all costs.

[Camoradi]

chrispmartha said:

I agree, I voted Remain but obviously think we should Leave as that is democracy, however it should be done correctly, legally and with the whole country in mind not just those that want out at all costs.

Absolutely. I know there are some who would have wanted to leave just to upset the apple cart, and damn the consequences, but I suspect a majority of leave and remain voters put their cross in the box with some uncertainty due to the enormity and unpredictability of the consequences.

I hope now that cool heads prevail on both sides and the negotiations are carried out without malice, and with the best interests of all UK and EU citizens in mind.

[FiF]

Camoradi said:

chrispmartha said:

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Well as much as you like to think you do, you don't speak for everyone that voted leave.

I don't agree with Don that leave voters don't give a damn, but by definition it could not be possible to vote in advance on the terms of leaving, as the other members of the EU have influence over that, so anything offered in advance could be vetoed later. Even now the UK cannot unilaterally decide the terms on which we leave.

What leave voters did indicate is that they were willing to take their chances outside of the EU, understanding that the way forward was unclear. There was not, and cannot be, any certainty for the future, but this would be equally true inside the EU.

I too don't agree with don4l that everyone who voted Leave doesn't give a damn, but frankly I can see where he's coming from. Frankly Pete North in his Ian Dunt, lying B'stard piece has one paragraph that encapsulates the situation why folks might not give a damn, or perhaps care a lot less than they might.

Pete North said:

But this is why I no longer have another nanosecond for remainers. You can equip them with the information, but they then use bits convenient to their narrative, while ignoring the bits that are not, and continue to look for the cloud in every silver lining.

I really love the looking for a cloud in every silver lining comment, just sums up so much of what we see.

[chrispmartha]

FiF said:

Camoradi said:

chrispmartha said:

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Well as much as you like to think you do, you don't speak for everyone that voted leave.

I don't agree with Don that leave voters don't give a damn, but by definition it could not be possible to vote in advance on the terms of leaving, as the other members of the EU have influence over that, so anything offered in advance could be vetoed later. Even now the UK cannot unilaterally decide the terms on which we leave.

What leave voters did indicate is that they were willing to take their chances outside of the EU, understanding that the way forward was unclear. There was not, and cannot be, any certainty for the future, but this would be equally true inside the EU.

I too don't agree with don4l that everyone who voted Leave doesn't give a damn, but frankly I can see where he's coming from. Frankly Pete North in his Ian Dunt, lying B'stard piece has one paragraph that encapsulates the situation why folks might not give a damn, or perhaps care a lot less than they might.

Pete North said:

But this is why I no longer have another nanosecond for remainers. You can equip them with the information, but they then use bits convenient to their narrative, while ignoring the bits that are not, and continue to look for the cloud in every silver lining.

I really love the looking for a cloud in every silver lining comment, just sums up so much of what we see.

But putting all remainers in one camp is as bad as lumping all brexiteers in one camp its quite clearly not that simple

[anonymous-user]

CaptainSlow said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

There wasn't a vote on the terms of Remaining either.

The terms of our membership of the EU were and are well defined.

Your point is (I assume) something along the lines of "The Govt could have done anything it wanted to do to embed us firmly into the European project including but not limited to voting that we adopt the Euro, fund and man all of the EU Army, pay for every ill person in Europe to come to Britain and use the NHS, speak German, rename ourselves The United Kingdom of New Luxembourg, or become a German Land or French department"

All and any of which, no matter how outlandish, would have been scrutinised by Parliament and not done by exercise of the prerogative.

[FiF]

chrispmartha said:

FiF said:

Camoradi said:

chrispmartha said:

don4l said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

This would be an issue if any of the people who voted Leave gave a damn.

I don't.

Well as much as you like to think you do, you don't speak for everyone that voted leave.

I don't agree with Don that leave voters don't give a damn, but by definition it could not be possible to vote in advance on the terms of leaving, as the other members of the EU have influence over that, so anything offered in advance could be vetoed later. Even now the UK cannot unilaterally decide the terms on which we leave.

What leave voters did indicate is that they were willing to take their chances outside of the EU, understanding that the way forward was unclear. There was not, and cannot be, any certainty for the future, but this would be equally true inside the EU.

I too don't agree with don4l that everyone who voted Leave doesn't give a damn, but frankly I can see where he's coming from. Frankly Pete North in his Ian Dunt, lying B'stard piece has one paragraph that encapsulates the situation why folks might not give a damn, or perhaps care a lot less than they might.

Pete North said:

But this is why I no longer have another nanosecond for remainers. You can equip them with the information, but they then use bits convenient to their narrative, while ignoring the bits that are not, and continue to look for the cloud in every silver lining.

I really love the looking for a cloud in every silver lining comment, just sums up so much of what we see.

But putting all remainers in one camp is as bad as lumping all brexiteers in one camp its quite clearly not that simple

I think the wider point is that there are factions in all camps, Leave / Remain and UK/ EU, who don't help in working out a solution that's the best achievable way forward collectively and end up just being divisive and frustrating. See it know here and elsewhere. It does get to the point where someone, for once, makes a valid observation or suggestion, but it's immediately dismissed because of their history.

[philv]

The EU were pretty clear leading up to tne referendum that leaving would mean no access to single market and tney would give us bugger all.

This rhetoric, i believe, was common knowledge.

We still voted leave.

So why do remainers insist that leavers didn't vote for this or that.
In particular access to the single market.

There were likely only a few major concerns that leavers had (immigrations, laws, etc).
They should all be addressed, irrespective of tne consequences.

Otherwuse, just rename the EU to EU2 and job done, we'll be out of tne EU.

On a personal note, i have ties, family and financial, to Europe and the fall in the xrate is hurting.
I don't want to leave.
But we are a democracy, and i don't want to see this fudged.

Edited by philv on Thursday 8th December 12:06

[blindswelledrat]

Pan Pan Pan said:

All this dicking around by those who don't want to accept the result of the 23rd June referendum, puts me in mind of a fight video on yootube, named `Show off gets knocked out while showing off' where the bloke with the short hair represents the leave side of the argument, and the bloke with the long hair that of the remain side.
Just a bit of light entertainment to break the tedium of trying to explain to the remain side, that in the referendum the leave side had a majority over the remain side, and all their dicking around is no more than an attempt by them to subvert the wishes of the democratic majority.

Gibberish.
All this 'dicking around' is actually an attempt by people who are worried to leave in the least damaging way.

I love the way you all genuinely believe that because leave won, it gives the government carte blanche to do whatever they want, whenever they want. It is a nonsensical thought process.
Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight. Are you honestly telling me that you would say "Well, fair enough. We lost so we should be quiet".
Of course not, so stop being silly.