Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[Fastdruid]

blindswelledrat said:

Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight.

That's what Blair did!

[philv]

blindswelledrat said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

All this dicking around by those who don't want to accept the result of the 23rd June referendum, puts me in mind of a fight video on yootube, named `Show off gets knocked out while showing off' where the bloke with the short hair represents the leave side of the argument, and the bloke with the long hair that of the remain side.
Just a bit of light entertainment to break the tedium of trying to explain to the remain side, that in the referendum the leave side had a majority over the remain side, and all their dicking around is no more than an attempt by them to subvert the wishes of the democratic majority.

Gibberish.
All this 'dicking around' is actually an attempt by people who are worried to leave in the least damaging way.

I love the way you all genuinely believe that because leave won, it gives the government carte blanche to do whatever they want, whenever they want. It is a nonsensical thought process.
Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight. Are you honestly telling me that you would say "Well, fair enough. We lost so we should be quiet".
Of course not, so stop being silly.

The government will try and get tne best deal possible, why would tney not?

And we have never had a say in dealings with tne EU.

[blindswelledrat]

philv said:

The EU were pretty clear leading up to tne referendum that leaving would mean no access to single market and tney would give us bugger all.

This rhetoric, i believe, was common knowledge.
te]

I can't speak for you specifically, but the number of times I saw and heard the phrase "It's nonsense. The EU needs us more than we need them. We are their biggest market- it will be fine" means that I disagree that everyone thought we would have no access to the single market.
I agree that anyone who cared enough to read everything available to them knew this, but I do not agree that the majority of people who voted had anything more than a skeletal idea of what they were voting for, let alone a deep enough interest to understand how markets influenced each other and the economic impact of leave.

[blindswelledrat]

Fastdruid said:

blindswelledrat said:

Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight.

That's what Blair did!

And assuming you didn't vote for him, did you quietly sit and not complain in the belief he could do whatever he wanted because he had a majority?
No you didn't so why on earth would you expect that of others?

[philv]

blindswelledrat said:

philv said:

The EU were pretty clear leading up to tne referendum that leaving would mean no access to single market and tney would give us bugger all.

This rhetoric, i believe, was common knowledge.
te]

I can't speak for you specifically, but the number of times I saw and heard the phrase "It's nonsense. The EU needs us more than we need them. We are their biggest market- it will be fine" means that I disagree that everyone thought we would have no access to the single market.
I agree that anyone who cared enough to read everything available to them knew this, but I do not agree that the majority of people who voted had anything more than a skeletal idea of what they were voting for, let alone a deep enough interest to understand how markets influenced each other and the economic impact of leave.

Fred tells you time and again he in't going to tne pub.
Bert says Fred is.
Fred tells you again he isn't.
I reckon Fred should know.

[Fastdruid]

blindswelledrat said:

I love the way you all genuinely believe that because leave won, it gives the government carte blanche to do whatever they want, whenever they want. It is a nonsensical thought process.

As I have pointed out previously I don't and neither do while I cannot claim to speak for them all neither do most.

Parliament voted for a referendum to let the people decide if to stay or go. They voted for this knowing full well that it was fully intended to carry it out.

IMO This gives the Government the go ahead to start that process.

It does not give them "carte blanche to do whatever they want", it gives them one very specific permission. To Leave the EU.

[blindswelledrat]

philv said:

The government will try and get tne best deal possible, why would tney not?

And we have never had a say in dealings with tne EU.

That's a fair point, but it isn't quite that simple. We have voted to leave the EU we have not voted to stop immigration.
So I would argue that the 'best deal' would be to allow immigration to continue and keep in the single market whilst leaving the EU.
You almost certainly think otherwise.
So this is the point of the confusion. Nobody can even agree what the best deal is and people rightly or wrongly don't trust Theresa May to be the arbiter of that on behalf of everyone.

[philv]

What do remainers fear most about leaving tne EU?
What do tney fear losing tne most that they wish to keep?

[Funkycoldribena]

philv said:

What do remainers fear most about leaving tne EU?
What do tney fear losing tne most that they wish to keep?

H's?

[blindswelledrat]

philv said:

What do remainers fear most about leaving tne EU?
What do tney fear losing tne most that they wish to keep?

The single biggest thing for me is my livelihood. My business is dependant on a decent economy. It has been consistently tough since the big recession and has only just started to get better in the last couple of years, but I still see the economy as extremely fragile.
An upheaval of this magnitude could be disastrous I believe. The combination of higher costs, inflation, lack of investment and lack of people to do jobs is absolutely terrifying to me.
I so badly want to be wrong on this I will admit that I have been pleasantly surprised post-vote as I definitely believed the vote itself would kill confidence and would cause a recession just on this alone and I was wrong.
And I may be wrong on the long term view to. Or I might be right. Whichever turns out to be the case, I don't think I will notice any significant change for the better where in 15 years time everything will be all rosy because we left the EU. I do not see any potential gain at all for a huge risk

Same question back to you: Fast forward 10 years- what are you hoping to see as a result of leaving?

[philv]

blindswelledrat said:

philv said:

The government will try and get tne best deal possible, why would tney not?

And we have never had a say in dealings with tne EU.

That's a fair point, but it isn't quite that simple. We have voted to leave the EU we have not voted to stop immigration.
So I would argue that the 'best deal' would be to allow immigration to continue and keep in the single market whilst leaving the EU.
You almost certainly think otherwise.
So this is the point of the confusion. Nobody can even agree what the best deal is and people rightly or wrongly don't trust Theresa May to be the arbiter of that on behalf of everyone.

We voted to leave the EU for a few basic reasons i think.
One biggie was immigration.
Ii have a young child in Europe and a european girlfriend, and most of my family were going to or did vote to leave based for a large part on i migration (that and control).

Just about anyone i spoke to about tne referendum, for tne most part only ever mentioned immigration.

Immigration was a huge issue for a significant prportion of leavers.

Again, leaving, but not doing it in a way that addresses the reasons why peop,e voted to leave, would be a fudge.

[FN2TypeR]

philv said:

What do remainers fear most about leaving tne EU?
What do tney fear losing tne most that they wish to keep?

If they send all the Romanians home it'll cost more to have our cars cleaned.

[philv]

blindswelledrat said:

philv said:

What do remainers fear most about leaving tne EU?
What do tney fear losing tne most that they wish to keep?

The single biggest thing for me is my livelihood. My business is dependant on a decent economy. It has been consistently tough since the big recession and has only just started to get better in the last couple of years, but I still see the economy as extremely fragile.
An upheaval of this magnitude could be disastrous I believe. The combination of higher costs, inflation, lack of investment and lack of people to do jobs is absolutely terrifying to me.
I so badly want to be wrong on this I will admit that I have been pleasantly surprised post-vote as I definitely believed the vote itself would kill confidence and would cause a recession just on this alone and I was wrong.
And I may be wrong on the long term view to. Or I might be right. Whichever turns out to be the case, I don't think I will notice any significant change for the better where in 15 years time everything will be all rosy because we left the EU. I do not see any potential gain at all for a huge risk

Same question back to you: Fast forward 10 years- what are you hoping to see as a result of leaving?

I don't want to leave.
As stated, i have links to europe and screwed financially with the xrate.
And other reasons more personal.

I think your concerns (and my lpoblems) would go away if we get access to the single market.
But that goes against immigration and therefore against why a lot of people voted to leave.

[blindswelledrat]

philv said:

I think your concerns (and my lpoblems) would go away if we get access to the single market.
But that goes against immigration and therefore against why a lot of people voted to leave.

Agree completely.
Which more or less leaves us stumped and why, with hindsight, the terms of the referendum were ill thought-out.
FYI, although I have assumed pretty much the entire reason to vote leave was immigration, most leavers on this thread claim it is not their primary reason.
So there's hope yet!

[confused_buyer]

blindswelledrat said:

Agree completely.
Which more or less leaves us stumped and why, with hindsight, the terms of the referendum were ill thought-out.
FYI, although I have assumed pretty much the entire reason to vote leave was immigration, most leavers on this thread claim it is not their primary reason.
So there's hope yet!

Opposition to the EU is not a very new thing. Even before a big increase in immigration there have been polls going back 40 years showing significant and sometimes majority opinion against the EU in the UK.

Opinion polls in the early to mid 90's were regularly putting "Get Out" at around the 40% level and sometimes ahead of Stay. This was well before accession of the new countries and free movement becoming any sort of issue.

Immigration may have tipped it but there was always a steady anti-EU bloc for Leave to build on.

[Dindoit]

blindswelledrat said:

I love the way you all genuinely believe that because leave won, it gives the government carte blanche to do whatever they want, whenever they want. It is a nonsensical thought process.
Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight. Are you honestly telling me that you would say "Well, fair enough. We lost so we should be quiet".
Of course not, so stop being silly.

Join the Euro and Shengen while we're at it. Hard Remain. The WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!!!

[Elysium]

blindswelledrat said:

Gibberish.
All this 'dicking around' is actually an attempt by people who are worried to leave in the least damaging way.

I love the way you all genuinely believe that because leave won, it gives the government carte blanche to do whatever they want, whenever they want. It is a nonsensical thought process.
Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight. Are you honestly telling me that you would say "Well, fair enough. We lost so we should be quiet".
Of course not, so stop being silly.

Spot on. Somehow people have convinced themselves that Brexit is the first thing ever where everyone has to agree 100% and that any legitimate voices of opposition are unpatriotic.

[CaptainSlow]

Greg66 said:

CaptainSlow said:

Greg66 said:

Likewise, leaving, and the terms of leaving, are completely different. The voted on one, but not the other.

There wasn't a vote on the terms of Remaining either.

The terms of our membership of the EU were and are well defined.

Your point is (I assume) something along the lines of "The Govt could have done anything it wanted to do to embed us firmly into the European project including but not limited to voting that we adopt the Euro, fund and man all of the EU Army, pay for every ill person in Europe to come to Britain and use the NHS, speak German, rename ourselves The United Kingdom of New Luxembourg, or become a German Land or French department"

All and any of which, no matter how outlandish, would have been scrutinised by Parliament and not done by exercise of the prerogative.

...and the EU listens to national parliaments?...or just presses on regardless.

"Reform from within" bks.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Elysium said:

blindswelledrat said:

Gibberish.
All this 'dicking around' is actually an attempt by people who are worried to leave in the least damaging way.

I love the way you all genuinely believe that because leave won, it gives the government carte blanche to do whatever they want, whenever they want. It is a nonsensical thought process.
Turn it the other way. Imagine remain won for a moment and Cameron instantly agreed to pay an extra 7 billion to Europe and encourage immigration to double overnight. Are you honestly telling me that you would say "Well, fair enough. We lost so we should be quiet".
Of course not, so stop being silly.

Spot on. Somehow people have convinced themselves that Brexit is the first thing ever where everyone has to agree 100% and that any legitimate voices of opposition are unpatriotic.

No. Brexit is the first time where a referendum has returned a clear majority, which in the past was accepted, even by those who did not get the result they wanted, but where on this occasion, some of those who did not get the result they wanted have tried to delay, block or overturn the wishes of the majority vote in the UK.
I am pleased the Blindaswellasarat thinks this is gibberish. as this means as far as he is concerned I have got to the truth of the matter, and he does not like what the truth is telling him.

[Sylvaforever]

This court farce is a worry for the future where a precedent is set to oppose a democratic result through the use of the judiciary who have proven to be out of date and out if touch.