Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[anonymous-user]

Have I got this right? A South African immigrant married to a billionaire petitions the high court to ove rule the constitutional will of the people which was already passed in Parliament by Dave etc. prior to the referendum and the wigs agree????

[Einion Yrth]

///ajd said:

I think DailyMash captures the democratic dominance of UKIP well here:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-he...

You're quoting the Daily Mash now?

[Elysium]

Given the view amongst the hardcore leavers that this is about a small minority usurping democracy and trying to overturn the referendum result you would imagine that the EU would be happy about this judgement.

It's clear that they are not celebrating though. I suspect this is because they realise that our negotiating position is likely to be stronger if we properly prepare for a50.

Also, an increasing number of MPs are agreeing that this should go to parliament. On that basis, I think the Govt intention to appeal this decision is starting to look untenable. Particularly as an appeal would require 7 law lords, be televised and might potentially include the Scottish parliament as a claimant.

[don4l]

minimoog said:

SidewaysSi said:

I can't see Brexit happening to be honest. The Tories won't win if it goes to a vote.

Disagree. A50 will still be invoked.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to thoroughly enjoy Don4l, 'Bugler, Powerstrokeoff and Kippers in general topping up their Kanga's every half hour in the meantime though

I'm entirely relaxed.

It is quite invigorating to see all the Remainers go straight back to "denial" in the 5 stages of grief.



It is good fun watching the Remainers telling us how worried we are.

Almost as funny as watching them tell us why we voted Leave in the first place.

[///ajd]

Einion Yrth said:

///ajd said:

I think DailyMash captures the democratic dominance of UKIP well here:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-he...

You're quoting the Daily Mash now?

Come on it's funny.

UKIP has asserted that democracy can only be upheld if everyone does what they and their single MP demands.

Farage: “UKIP will certainly vote for hard Brexit in Parliament. Well, I hope we will. I’m not on speaking terms with our MP right now.”

[Graemsay]

johnboy1975 said:

Any rough ideas of numbers (MPs) for and against? Tory position will be leave I assume (with rebels backing remain), SNP will be remain, labour will be remain (with a lot of northern labour MPs rebelling and voting leave?)

Has ukip suddenly got a future again? Can see them sweeping to power with 18m votes next election if brexit is fudged or even worse, discarded

From the BBC back in June.

[Graemsay]

digimeistter said:

Have I got this right? A South African immigrant married to a billionaire petitions the high court to ove rule the constitutional will of the people which was already passed in Parliament by Dave etc. prior to the referendum and the wigs agree????

No, Gina Miller was born in Guyana, which is in South America, and I don't think her husband is a billionaire.

[Jazzy Jag]

Graemsay said:

digimeistter said:

Have I got this right? A South African immigrant married to a billionaire petitions the high court to ove rule the constitutional will of the people which was already passed in Parliament by Dave etc. prior to the referendum and the wigs agree????

No, Gina Miller was born in Guyana, which is in South America.

Oh, that's OK, then

[B'stard Child]

Elysium said:

Given the view amongst the hardcore leavers that this is about a small minority usurping democracy and trying to overturn the referendum result you would imagine that the EU would be happy about this judgement.

It's clear that they are not celebrating though. I suspect this is because they realise that our negotiating position is likely to be less week if we properly prepare for a50.

Back of the net (I know we are looking at it from 2 different sides but for me there is nothing to be worried about Remain and Leave people finding agreement)

Elysium said:

Also, an increasing number of MPs are agreeing that this should go to parliament. On that basis, I think the Govt intention to appeal this decision is starting to look untenable. Particularly as an appeal would require 7 law lords, be televised and might potentially include the Scottish parliament as a claimant.

I'd much rather it has happened now than after Art.50 is declared - right now the 2 year clock isn't ticking on a negotiation process (imagine if the challenge was after it - we want the government to focus on the best deal for the EU and the UK and all the citizens of this country - they can't do that if they are defending an untenable position in the UK courts)

I think that the appeal process will be put in place but the government have no need to follow thro with it (it buys the UK Government more time to prepare if they do mind)

The EU will be spitting feathers right now because this will potentially extend the period before we officially open up negotiations to leave - and they are getting a dedicated team together to deal with the negotiations that's going to sit on it's hands.

They can't complain because it our constitutional process they would be complaining against - and they wouldn't want to be seen to do that

[Einion Yrth]

B'stard Child said:

They can't complain because it our constitutional process they would be complaining against - and they wouldn't want to be seen to do that

They couldn't, it's expressly part of A.50.

[anonymous-user]

don4l said:

I'm entirely relaxed.

It is quite invigorating to see all the Remainers go straight back to "denial" in the 5 stages of grief.



It is good fun watching the Remainers telling us how worried we are.

Almost as funny as watching them tell us why we voted Leave in the first place.

My entertainment has been seeing the leavers perform some mental gymnastics so that a decision about Britain and Europe that has been made in a British Court that imposes the sovereignty of the British parliament is somehow not to be celebrated.

Isn't this what you wanted?

[B'stard Child]

///ajd said:

Einion Yrth said:

///ajd said:

I think DailyMash captures the democratic dominance of UKIP well here:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-he...

You're quoting the Daily Mash now?

Come on it's funny.

UKIP has asserted that democracy can only be upheld if everyone does what they and their single MP demands.

Farage: “UKIP will certainly vote for hard Brexit in Parliament. Well, I hope we will. I’m not on speaking terms with our MP right now.”

It is funny

Nowt wrong with a bit of humour injected into this thread - not sure it fits with your normal Indy links but thanks as I laughed

[Derek Smith]

don4l said:

I'm entirely relaxed.

It is quite invigorating to see all the Remainers go straight back to "denial" in the 5 stages of grief.



It is good fun watching the Remainers telling us how worried we are.

Almost as funny as watching them tell us why we voted Leave in the first place.

That's Denial. Let us know when you get to Anger.

[Zod]

don4l said:

Zod said:

An amusing little bit of German.

For the record, today's decision was made by the High Court (the Queen's Bench Division to be precise). The appeal will bypass the Court of Appeal and go direct to the Supreme Court. The CJEU (as it is now called) has no jurisdiction in the case, because, as I pointed out above, this case is a question of pure UK constitutional law.

I thought that the procedure is governed by the the EU constitution, or the Lisbon Treaty as it is misleadingly known.

If we were doing this under the UK constitution, why bother with Article 50.

We could just tell them that we have decided to Leave and say thanks for all the fish.

Actually, that should really read thanks for all our fish.

What we have to do in order to authorise invocation of Article 50 is a question of UK constitutional law. The actual invocation is following a procedure set out in an EU treaty.

We could leave tomorrow by repealing the European Communities Act, but that would involve treaty breach and that is generally considered to be bad form, at least outside a war situation.

[Einion Yrth]

cookie118 said:

My entertainment has been seeing the leavers perform some mental gymnastics so that a decision about Britain and Europe that has been made in a British Court that imposes the sovereignty of the British parliament is somehow not to be celebrated.

Isn't this what you wanted?

I think it's merely a reflection of how low peoples confidence in the political class has sunk. Whatever, it is what it is, either M.P.s demonstrate that they are a democratic body or we find a way of sacking them, en masse or severally.

[anonymous-user]

David Davis is saying that the Govt is appealing to win (vs what? Going through the motions?) because the referendum gave the mandate to the people.

He's obviously either not read the judgment or his papers, otherwise he'd know that the referendum was advisory and didn't give anyone any mandate.

But that aside, if he's determined to appeal and loses as badly as he did this time, with phrases such as "doesn't get off the ground" "divorced from reality" and "misconceived" being thrown at him surely he has to be sacked. His position will be untenable.

[Disastrous]

Almost all worth it just to see don4l try and pretend he's not hating this.

[don4l]

///ajd said:

BlackLabel said:

It's not the high court which will be responsible for subjugating democracy should MPs vote down article 50, it will be the MPs themselves.

The judges appear to have done their job properly - it's now up to the MPs to do theirs and act according to the wishes of the electorate.

They will be doing their jobs properly if they insist on proper scrutiny and debate as to how Brexit is delivered.

Only a tiny minority want to rush into brexit headlong without looking over the edge first.

All these threats of pitchforks and revolution are only for the extreme 5%.

Many in the country - watching the pound yo-yo with some alarm as we lurch between hard/soft/in/out - will be quite happy if a more considered open approach is adopted.

I think that is what MPs will insist on, and in time a more rigorous public engagement as to whether the outcome is supported by a majority.

Since when is 52% a tiny minority?

You might be correct if you said "tiny majority". However, all that was needed was a majority of one. It was one million.

[Einion Yrth]

Greg66 said:

David Davis is saying that the Govt is appealing to win (vs what? Going through the motions?) because the referendum gave the mandate to the people.

Morally it's a good argument, legally perhaps not so much. Whatever our sock puppet friends continue to state the electorate voted to leave the EU and I see no evidence of any significant retreat from that position. We will leave, if the corrupt farce that is the EU survives long enough, that is.

[///ajd]

Greg66 said:

David Davis is saying that the Govt is appealing to win (vs what? Going through the motions?) because the referendum gave the mandate to the people.

He's obviously either not read the judgment or his papers, otherwise he'd know that the referendum was advisory and didn't give anyone any mandate.

But that aside, if he's determined to appeal and loses as badly as he did this time, with phrases such as "doesn't get off the ground" "divorced from reality" and "misconceived" being thrown at him surely he has to be sacked. His position will be untenable.

Its a good point.

Back in May Davis said:

“Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else. Similar deals would be reached with other key EU nations. France would want to protect £3 billion of food and wine exports. Italy, its £1 billion fashion exports. Poland its £3 billion manufacturing exports.”

Seemingly unaware the EU is a trading bloc, and hence there would be only 1 EU deal for all 27 Nations.

He really doesn't seem well suited to the task ahead, does he?