45th President of the United States, Donald Trump.

[p1stonhead]

chrispmartha said:

walm said:

chrispmartha said:

Why do Trum supporters believe everything made outside the USA is tat?

Take Fender who make a variety of guitars and amplifers, they produce items in various countries this means they can sell items at various price points, one of their biggest sellers are guitars called made in mexico (oh the horror) they sell these at a mid price point as they aren't made in the USA (their highest price point) does anyone seriously think they will be happy if they are taxed to hogh heaven if they don't manufacture instruments in the USA, it will screw their whole business model and be really detrimental to the consumer, its a nonsense

I think the argument goes like this.

Protectionism will boost home-grown manufacturing and jobs - that's good.
The downside is that prices will have to rise, since it's more expensive to manufacture in the US vs China/Mexico/etc...
But despite decades of evidence to the contrary and well documented (not to mention obvious) price elasticity, demand will remain on its current growth trajectory.
And of course, people buying just as much at a higher price will find the money from... well... perhaps their new manufacturing job? (Everyone else not employed by the new manufacturing just has to suck up the higher prices.)

Therefore, there are no downsides to protectionism.

But it's not just Americans that buy Fender guitars, they are a global company, you can't wipe out a whole range of mid priced products and not affect the company in a massive way.

In fairness to the other side of your specific example, Mexican Strats are not as good as American so that does come into it.

But your point stands, people who think that America can suddenly do things as cheaply as the rest of the world are delusional.

I like these two - LOVE ME PLEASE!

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 18th January 13:07

[chrispmartha]

p1stonhead said:

chrispmartha said:

walm said:

chrispmartha said:

Why do Trum supporters believe everything made outside the USA is tat?

Take Fender who make a variety of guitars and amplifers, they produce items in various countries this means they can sell items at various price points, one of their biggest sellers are guitars called made in mexico (oh the horror) they sell these at a mid price point as they aren't made in the USA (their highest price point) does anyone seriously think they will be happy if they are taxed to hogh heaven if they don't manufacture instruments in the USA, it will screw their whole business model and be really detrimental to the consumer, its a nonsense

I think the argument goes like this.

Protectionism will boost home-grown manufacturing and jobs - that's good.
The downside is that prices will have to rise, since it's more expensive to manufacture in the US vs China/Mexico/etc...
But despite decades of evidence to the contrary and well documented (not to mention obvious) price elasticity, demand will remain on its current growth trajectory.
And of course, people buying just as much at a higher price will find the money from... well... perhaps their new manufacturing job? (Everyone else not employed by the new manufacturing just has to suck up the higher prices.)

Therefore, there are no downsides to protectionism.

But it's not just Americans that buy Fender guitars, they are a global company, you can't wipe out a whole range of mid priced products and not affect the company in a massive way.

In fairness to the other side of your specific example, Mexican Strats are not as good as American so that does come into it.

But your point stands, people who think that America can suddenly do things as cheaply as the rest of the world are delusional.

Ive played some Mexican guitars that hve been 'better' than the USA versions (that's by the by) but your Average consumer loses out as prices across the board will skyrocket as they will just increase the top end guitars to accommodate a mid range american built version, also what happens to the cheap Squier range?

[Digga]

B'stard Child said:

superkartracer said:

http://news.sky.com/story/finally-after-years-of-t...

Bloody hell!!!

It's a little known fact, but all machine tool producers are bound by laws which prevent them from supplying very high-precision equipment into China. I guess, something to do with the cold war era, but it is still in place. Moreover, every machine tool we've purchased (we have three Mazak CNC machine tools) has a contract which stipulates they cannot be exported to China and they are 'tracked' and also will disable if moved out of territory.

The Contract said:

As part of Yamazaki Mazak’s commitment to help halt the spread of weapons of mass
destruction, this machine may be equipped with a Relocation Detector. In the event that
the machine is moved this device will be triggered and will prevent the machine being
operated in automatic mode until a password is entered by an authorised representative
of Yamazaki Mazak. Yamazaki Mazak or its authorised representative should be
informed before the machine is moved, transferred or sold.

[p1stonhead]

Digga said:

B'stard Child said:

superkartracer said:

http://news.sky.com/story/finally-after-years-of-t...

Bloody hell!!!

It's a little known fact, but all machine tool producers are bound by laws which prevent them from supplying very high-precision equipment into CHhina. I guess, something to do with the cold war era, but it is still in place. Moreover, every machine tool we've purchased (we have three Mazak CNC machine tools) has a contract which stipulates they cannot be exported to China and they are 'tracked' and also will disable if moved out of territory.

The Contract said:

As part of Yamazaki Mazak’s commitment to help halt the spread of weapons of mass
destruction, this machine may be equipped with a Relocation Detector. In the event that
the machine is moved this device will be triggered and will prevent the machine being
operated in automatic mode until a password is entered by an authorised representative
of Yamazaki Mazak. Yamazaki Mazak or its authorised representative should be
informed before the machine is moved, transferred or sold.

Very interesting!

[johnxjsc1985]

p1stonhead said:

In fairness to the other side of your specific example, Mexican Strats are not as good as American so that does come into it.

But your point stands, people who think that America can suddenly do things as cheaply as the rest of the world are delusional.

I like these two - LOVE ME PLEASE!

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 18th January 13:07

its not about doing things as cheaply. Its about not letting American Companies move abroad ditching the US employees and then expect to sell the products back to the US without punitive taxes and its been going on around the world for about 20 years or so. Fair trade and open trade doesn't or shouldn't involve rodgering the very people who made the business.

[p1stonhead]

johnxjsc1985 said:

p1stonhead said:

In fairness to the other side of your specific example, Mexican Strats are not as good as American so that does come into it.

But your point stands, people who think that America can suddenly do things as cheaply as the rest of the world are delusional.

I like these two - LOVE ME PLEASE!

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 18th January 13:07

its not about doing things as cheaply. Its about not letting American Companies move abroad ditching the US employees and then expect to sell the products back to the US without punitive taxes and its been going on around the world for about 20 years or so. Fair trade and open trade doesn't or shouldn't involve rodgering the very people who made the business.

So you want them to sell things back to the US with punitive taxes?

You think they will not pass taxes or additional charges onto the consumer? Are they expected to swallow them from the company bottom line?

How is it not about being cheap that's why they moved in the first place!

If they are forced to set up in USA, prices will rise hence 'cheapness' will reduce.

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 18th January 13:35

[Digga]

p1stonhead said:

Digga said:

B'stard Child said:

superkartracer said:

http://news.sky.com/story/finally-after-years-of-t...

Bloody hell!!!

It's a little known fact, but all machine tool producers are bound by laws which prevent them from supplying very high-precision equipment into CHhina. I guess, something to do with the cold war era, but it is still in place. Moreover, every machine tool we've purchased (we have three Mazak CNC machine tools) has a contract which stipulates they cannot be exported to China and they are 'tracked' and also will disable if moved out of territory.

The Contract said:

As part of Yamazaki Mazak’s commitment to help halt the spread of weapons of mass
destruction, this machine may be equipped with a Relocation Detector. In the event that
the machine is moved this device will be triggered and will prevent the machine being
operated in automatic mode until a password is entered by an authorised representative
of Yamazaki Mazak. Yamazaki Mazak or its authorised representative should be
informed before the machine is moved, transferred or sold.

Very interesting!

Hence why the majority of machine tools (CNC or otherwise) at work in China are produced domestically, rather than imported. Some very trick machines, especially for niche operations - some find their way here too - but for high-precision work, they really cannot compete with RoW.

[p1stonhead]

Digga said:

p1stonhead said:

Digga said:

B'stard Child said:

superkartracer said:

http://news.sky.com/story/finally-after-years-of-t...

Bloody hell!!!

It's a little known fact, but all machine tool producers are bound by laws which prevent them from supplying very high-precision equipment into CHhina. I guess, something to do with the cold war era, but it is still in place. Moreover, every machine tool we've purchased (we have three Mazak CNC machine tools) has a contract which stipulates they cannot be exported to China and they are 'tracked' and also will disable if moved out of territory.

The Contract said:

As part of Yamazaki Mazak’s commitment to help halt the spread of weapons of mass
destruction, this machine may be equipped with a Relocation Detector. In the event that
the machine is moved this device will be triggered and will prevent the machine being
operated in automatic mode until a password is entered by an authorised representative
of Yamazaki Mazak. Yamazaki Mazak or its authorised representative should be
informed before the machine is moved, transferred or sold.

Very interesting!

Hence why the majority of machine tools (CNC or otherwise) at work in China are produced domestically, rather than imported. Some very trick machines, especially for niche operations - some find their way here too - but for high-precision work, they really cannot compete with RoW.

What about things like the iphone? Wouldnt they require such precision machines or is it only really specialist stuff that they cant get their head around?

[Digga]

p1stonhead said:

What about things like the iphone? Wouldnt they require such precision machines or is it only really specialist stuff that they cant get their head around?

AFAIK the iPhone, clever though it is as a device, is not really that 'high precision' when compared to things like weaponry, jet engines and the like. In many industries, the speed, power, tolerance and accuracy of machining required, either to make parts (and the whole) perform, or to make them at the right sort of cost eludes all but those with the best machine tools.

[Stickyfinger]

Do not underestimate the size of the US market.

[walm]

Stickyfinger said:

Do not underestimate the size of the US market.

Completely irrelevant and beside the point.

Making something in the US rather than China will reduce demand, because the price will have to rise, it's that simple.
This is economics 101.

Please give me an example where a company will be able to sell more with a higher price, no matter HOW big the US market????

[scherzkeks]

chrispmartha said:

Why do Trum supporters believe everything made outside the USA is tat?

Take Fender who make a variety of guitars and amplifers, they produce items in various countries this means they can sell items at various price points, one of their biggest sellers are guitars called made in mexico (oh the horror) they sell these at a mid price point as they aren't made in the USA (their highest price point) does anyone seriously think they will be happy if they are taxed to hogh heaven if they don't manufacture instruments in the USA, it will screw their whole business model and be really detrimental to the consumer, its a nonsense

What you seem not to realize is that the economics of globalism drove them to manufacture out of country in the first place. G&L sadly ended up doing the same thing, even though when they started in the early 80s, they were doing what Fender was beginning to move away from: producing top-shelf instruments in the USA.

A similar trend has occured in the bike market. Storied manufacturers who produced in Italy and elsewhere were forced to produce in Asia an reduce the number of frame sizes (bad when it comes to precise fit) on offer, as production costs had their product costing too much vs. competitors who were manufacturing for considerably less.

And as manufacturing becomes too expensive in Asia, due to workers demanding better pay and conditions, the companies will shift again to exploit another population. At a certain point it has to end. The system is not sustainable, and IMO, we all lose. Who wants a Squire or Mexican Strat? They sell entirely on price, and who wants to support that labor model anyways?

[walm]

scherzkeks said:

Who wants a Squire or Mexican Strat? They sell entirely on price, and who wants to support that labor model?

Plenty of people.
Obviously.

It's almost as if you are so blinkered you can't understand the rampant success of WalMart or Target.

In fact, it's so ignorant, you can't possibly understand the very basic economics of price/demand.

[5ohmustang]

The crooks are leaving the building.

Take a look at the people behind one of the biggest administration failures in history.

[Stickyfinger]

walm said:

Completely irrelevant and beside the point.

Making something in the US rather than China will reduce demand, because the price will have to rise, it's that simple.
This is economics 101.

Please give me an example where a company will be able to sell more with a higher price, no matter HOW big the US market????

Forgive me, do they make anything in the USA that sells ?

[scherzkeks]

walm said:

scherzkeks said:

Who wants a Squire or Mexican Strat? They sell entirely on price, and who wants to support that labor model?

Plenty of people.
Obviously.

It's almost as if you are so blinkered you can't understand the rampant success of WalMart or Target.

In fact, it's so ignorant, you can't possibly understand the very basic economics of price/demand.

Sorry about your Squire.

[5ohmustang]

Stickyfinger said:

Forgive me, do they make anything in the USA that sells ?

No, just the biggest manufacturing industry in the world, except our products don't break or corrode after 2 weeks like the Chinese.

[B'stard Child]

walm said:

Stickyfinger said:

Do not underestimate the size of the US market.

Completely irrelevant and beside the point.

Making something in the US rather than China will reduce demand, because the price will have to rise, it's that simple.
This is economics 101.

Please give me an example where a company will be able to sell more with a higher price, no matter HOW big the US market????

Apple seem to be very good at it...........

[scherzkeks]

Halb said:

scherzkeks said:

I disagree. A good part of the attraction of cheap goods is the marketing we have been subjected to for decades now -- the mentality that we all deserve as many new, shiny objects as our hearts desire. The only way to satiate this kind of mentality is to provide cheap goods in bulk. There are even psychological disorders associated with this brand of hyperconsumerism.

Though American, I live in Germany, where the mentality is very different. Germans do like low prices of course, but they don't like poor quality, nor do they have the throw-away mentality of Americans (and Brits.

The mentality is to buy as little as possible, but the best quality at the best price. This results in most people buying on sale or buying used. Second hand shops are frequented by people of all classes here, and many used goods can sell for relatively high prices comparatively.

It is also worth noting that Germany still has a strong domestic manufacturing base, and laws that protect a well-paid and educated workforce.

Indeed, the Germans doing it right. Winning!

If you think they are good, don't ever look into Switzerland.

[walm]

scherzkeks said:

walm said:

scherzkeks said:

Who wants a Squire or Mexican Strat? They sell entirely on price, and who wants to support that labor model?

Plenty of people.
Obviously.

It's almost as if you are so blinkered you can't understand the rampant success of WalMart or Target.

In fact, it's so ignorant, you can't possibly understand the very basic economics of price/demand.

Sorry about your Squire.

It's "Squier" you muppet!

My squire on the other hand is excellent although his armour polishing skills need work.