Would you vote in favour of raising taxes?

[Countdown]

bhstewie said:

Fair point and on reflection I agree, every bit of waste isn't possible, but there does seem to be this assumption that things are always being done as well as they could be.

I work in IT, I'm not one of the powerfully built management consultant types that frequent NP&E but I am very familiar with the phrase "We've always done it this way" for example.

I agree with you on that point. I would caveat it by saying "changing it" doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. It just may mean that "you spend less, you get less".

The elephant in the room is that more and more people expect the Nanny State to look after them (and their nearest and dearest) rather than families looking after their own. So now when Grandad/Grandma can't look after themselves "No problem, off you go to a Nursing Home" when in the old days they would be looked after by sons/daughters.

[egor110]

Countdown said:

bhstewie said:

Fair point and on reflection I agree, every bit of waste isn't possible, but there does seem to be this assumption that things are always being done as well as they could be.

I work in IT, I'm not one of the powerfully built management consultant types that frequent NP&E but I am very familiar with the phrase "We've always done it this way" for example.

I agree with you on that point. I would caveat it by saying "changing it" doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. It just may mean that "you spend less, you get less".

The elephant in the room is that more and more people expect the Nanny State to look after them (and their nearest and dearest) rather than families looking after their own. So now when Grandad/Grandma can't look after themselves "No problem, off you go to a Nursing Home" when in the old days they would be looked after by sons/daughters.

Which is fine if there just getting old but the fact is more and more people end up with dementia and with the best will in the world the average family at home has no idea how to care for them.

[Countdown]

hornetrider said:

2. They need to open up the books and show where the waste is.

Section 15 (or 14) Audit Committee Act - Council taxpayers are allowed to go through the accounts, invoices, receipts, expenses of their Local Authority every year. You just have to go in and ask.

[Countdown]

egor110 said:

Which is fine if there just getting old but the fact is more and more people end up with dementia and with the best will in the world the average family at home has no idea how to care for them.

I understand that, but most people in care homes don't have dementia. They just need somebody to keep an eye on them, help them get changed, washed, and fed. Care workers don't do anything which the average family member couldn't do.

[Foliage]

randlemarcus said:

Do they also get to vote on what services they want the Council to provide? Might be an interesting exercise on direct democracy.

Like xfactor, on the telly, with Simon Cowell, the different depts. have to showcase the services they provide in the form of a song and dance routine? Sounds like it would be interesting.

[egor110]

Countdown said:

egor110 said:

Which is fine if there just getting old but the fact is more and more people end up with dementia and with the best will in the world the average family at home has no idea how to care for them.

I understand that, but most people in care homes don't have dementia. They just need somebody to keep an eye on them, help them get changed, washed, and fed. Care workers don't do anything which the average family member couldn't do.

That's not my experience of council carehomes down here in Somerset , you just aren't going to get in a council home if your just a bit old and doddery the rooms just aren't there.

The flip side is if you look at the council homes you wouldn't actually want a family member in them as the staffing levels are so low the staff barely have time to interact with the old folk so it's more like a prison.

If your going private then it makes no difference as your paying to stay where you want ( or your family want)

[IroningMan]

Local authorities are my customer base; I see a great deal of cutting of 'visible' services in order to score political points. It often also used to be a complaint that central government failed to acknowledge local population increases, or lagged behind by a number of years in doing so.

Personally, though, I think the reality is that we have too much local government: the splitting-out of 'unitary' authorities in the 70s and 80s was a mistake, and there is much to be gained by consolidation. That's before you ask yourself why one lot of @2m people can be looked after by one local authority - Birmingham City Council - whilst another lot of @2m people just down the road seem to require the services of:

Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council
Bridgend County Borough Council
Caerphilly County Borough Council
Caerphilly County Borough Council 
Carmarthenshire County Council 
Ceredigion County Council 
Conwy County Borough Council 
Denbighshire County Council 
Flintshire County Council 
Gwynedd Council 
Isle of Anglesey County Council 
Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council 
Monmouthshire County Council 
Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council 
Newport City Council 
Pembrokeshire County Council 
Powys County Council 
Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council 
City and County of Swansea 
Torfaen County Borough Council 
Vale of Glamorgan Council 
Wrexham County Borough Council 

plus the Welsh National Assembly.

Not that I'm picking on the Welsh - more or less every English county is further divided into umpteen District Councils, never mind examples like Devon + Plymouth + Torbay. And how many London Boroughs?

We have too much local government.

[hornetrider]

Countdown said:

egor110 said:

Which is fine if there just getting old but the fact is more and more people end up with dementia and with the best will in the world the average family at home has no idea how to care for them.

I understand that, but most people in care homes don't have dementia. They just need somebody to keep an eye on them, help them get changed, washed, and fed. Care workers don't do anything which the average family member couldn't do.

Are you expecting the 'family members' to give up work in order to care for elderly relatives?

[AlexC1981]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's interesting because you would naturally think the cleaning company would be more expensive.

Even if the company's cleaners are on zero hour contracts (so no pension & no holiday pay), the managers/owners profit margin, salaries and pensions have to come out of that.

When the cleaning contract is up, could you employ cleaners directly on zero hour contracts + a full time manager and get even more savings?

[Catatafish]

Countdown said:

hornetrider said:

2. They need to open up the books and show where the waste is.

Section 15 (or 14) Audit Committee Act - Council taxpayers are allowed to go through the accounts, invoices, receipts, expenses of their Local Authority every year. You just have to go in and ask.

This is actually quite smart as they know most people can`t be bothered, and I doubt the real justification for each item of spending is neatly appended.

Probably the most waste is duplicated functions of staff (as pointed out above) but if these people with vague skills (pro web browsing) were to be shed onto the job market, the benefits bill would increase to whatever was saved from the salary bill.

[wiggy001]

AlexC1981 said:

That's interesting because you would naturally think the cleaning company would be more expensive.

Even if the company's cleaners are on zero hour contracts (so no pension & no holiday pay), the managers/owners profit margin, salaries and pensions have to come out of that.

When the cleaning contract is up, could you employ cleaners directly on zero hour contracts + a full time manager and get even more savings?

If you are on a zero hours contract working the same shifts each week, you will then legally become an employee (with all the rights that gives). It also doesn't get over the issue of workers not turning up (outsourced, I assume they will send cover).

[del mar]

BlackLabel said:

Liverpool's mayor is hoping that the people of Liverpool vote for a tax rise.


The people of Liverpool could be asked to vote on whether they should pay up to 10% more council tax to help their “desperate” local authority maintain public services in the face of government cuts. Joe Anderson, Liverpool’s mayor, wants to hold a public referendum – the first of its kind in the UK – to ask residents whether they would support a significant rise above the 3.99% cap.

article said:

Joe Anderson, Liverpool’s mayor, wants to hold a public referendum – the first of its kind in the UK – to ask residents whether they would support a significant rise above the 3.99% cap.

The council is warning that if it does not increase tax then it faces cuts to all its services, with adult social care and children’s services the hardest hit. Anderson said that all council-run services, including libraries, sports centres, maintenance of parks, highway repairs, street cleaning and rubbish collections, would have to be cut by 50%.

He admitted that the local authority had no funds left, even for basic services.

No I pay enough tax !

Adult social care and children's services will be hardest hit.

How many people in Liverpool have actively campaigned for Syrian refugees and Children from Calais ?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/wirral-council...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...

The naivety of people never fails to surprise.

Why are you closing the Sports Centre - because we have taken in all those refugees that you wanted us to take in....

I couldn't find how many of the 63,000 kids looking for a family were in Liverpool, but another couple of hundred cant hurt.

[herewego]

AlexC1981 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's interesting because you would naturally think the cleaning company would be more expensive.

Even if the company's cleaners are on zero hour contracts (so no pension & no holiday pay), the managers/owners profit margin, salaries and pensions have to come out of that.

When the cleaning contract is up, could you employ cleaners directly on zero hour contracts + a full time manager and get even more savings?

The contract cleaners will be paid minimum wage.

[funkyrobot]

Certain people can't be trusted with the money they get now, let along more.

[IroningMan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My customer departments would never go out to tender on such small sums - they would be 'charged' internally by the finance function for doing so, with the cost likely to far outweigh any saving that the resultant contract would offer.

[Countdown]

hornetrider said:

Are you expecting the 'family members' to give up work in order to care for elderly relatives?

Why not? That is one option. Or they could get a private Carer. Or they could put them into an LA home. Everybody's situation varies.

Whatever the reason is, there seems to be an ever-increasing demand for the Public Sector to provide services. People want more but when it comes to paying for it they say that the Public Sector is bloated/inefficient/ full of middle managers on massive pensions. In that case why don't we just agree that everybody sorts themselves out?

Edited by Countdown on Friday 11th November 11:16

[Fastchas]

I'd never agree to pay more tax as they will ALWAYS find a way to spend the excess (if there ever is any) rather than cut taxes.
More and more projects, ideas, 'services', they never stand still and spend what revenue they collect on what they are required to spend it on.

[Robertj21a]

My experience of local councils, confirmed by family members who have worked for some of them, is that:-

- there are too many small (inefficient) councils
- the pension arrangements are wildly generous
- poor management
- poor staff performance (poor performers get moved around, never dismissed)
- poor controls
- long-serving staff with little awareness of the 'real world'
- generally still over-staffed

They need merging, quality management, performance targets, dismissals, revision of pension benefits etc etc.

[herewego]

Countdown said:

hornetrider said:

2. They need to open up the books and show where the waste is.

Section 15 (or 14) Audit Committee Act - Council taxpayers are allowed to go through the accounts, invoices, receipts, expenses of their Local Authority every year. You just have to go in and ask.

I don't think this would really tell you where any waste lay because you wouldn't know what had been done to minimise costs. e.g. Do they have the cheapest electricity and are all the lights, heaters, urns, computers etc. turned off when not in use.
Maybe ask does the finance department constantly review value for money in all departments and is there an annual report from them detailing their performance.

[hornetrider]

Countdown said:

hornetrider said:

Are you expecting the 'family members' to give up work in order to care for elderly relatives?

Why not?

Yes, that's right. Give up career as a taxpayer and go on the dole. Wonderful. Can't see any problems with that idea, nope, nosirree.