Man killed because his cruise control wouldn't switch off!

[xjay1337]

Vw ecus dont really store info either. Only logged faults eg overboost.

Edited to say: or live logging.

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 27th November 12:45

[davepoth]

The Mad Monk said:

Cobblers.

Cobblers

And I say thrice cobblers. I am firmly convinced that he was an exhibitionist who committed suicide.

Now wrap it up how you like. Express it more sympathetically, or more crudely if you prefer, but I am sure that is what happened. Anyone like to have a small bet with me?f

I'm not for a second suggesting that this wasn't...ahem..."driver error", but just pointing out that if you make a steering input with everything else equal the car will slow down. Lots of reasons for it (differential action, extra friction from the angle of the tyres in terms of grip and air resistance, traction control, ESC, and so on) but the car would have slowed down as a result of steering input.

[Sylvaforever]

how old was the car and what engine?

[ashleyman]

I've tried this in my Golf which is a DSG.

If you're accelerating, you can knock the car into Neutral with the DSG selector and the revs will just rise as it's not in gear.
If you're accelerating and you press the brake pedal at the same time, the brake overrides the accelerator and you slow down.
If you're on cruise control and you press the accelerator, the car will go faster, then when you let off the accelerator the car will gradually drop the speed to the cruise speed you had set.
If you're on cruise and press the brake the cruise control will de-activate.

I haven't tried being in cruise and knocking the car into Neutral as I didn't want to break anything.

I've also been told if you hold down the Start/Stop button in a keyless car it will cut the engine. Obviously doing this will also cut the power steering but not engage the steering lock.

Seems to me like if this wasn't a covered up suicide attempt or a genuine fault with the car's systems then he panicked and couldn't regain control of the car because of mental block.

Very sorry situation for his family though.

[Jimmy Recard]

My feeling is that it was a suicide with an attempt to create evidence that it wasn't.

Poor bloke either way.

[snuffy]

ashleyman said:

...or a genuine fault with the car's systems then he panicked and couldn't regain control of the car because of mental block.

I think that's what most likely happened. So a fault and therefore braking etc, which would of course cancel the cruise control, did not function correctly. And then he panicked and could not think what to do.

[saaby93]

WatchfulEye said:

saaby93 said:

without reading the whole topic - wasnt the toyota issue that the software in the accelerator broke so it was telling the car to accelerate fully even though the driver was feet off?

The Toyota issue was the footwell mat slipping forward, and the lip of the accelerator pedal then getting caught under the edge of the mat after a hard acceleration. Toyota ended up recalling the cars to fit new mat grip hooks and new accelerator pedals with stronger return springs. This happened to me, and while somewhat surprising, the accelerator was not "floored" and the amount of excessive acceleration was only moderate, and moderate pressure on the brake rapidly stopped the car.

Pretty sure the footwell mat slipping idea was a guess that never worked out in practice.
Yes they issued extra retainers but apparently the issue still occurred, which is when they started digging deeper into failure modes in the accelerator software, which seemed to be 'if everything works as it should, everything is fine' - if it doesnt anything could happen.

[mko9]

I recall when Toyota was having the "unintended acceleration" issue, one of the US car mags - Road & Track or Car & Driver - did a test of the Toyota in question and found with the accelerator floored you could still stop the car with the brakes repeatedly. Even in a Ford Mustang GT500, you could stop the car easily once and with considerable brake fade a second time.

I can't seem to find the specific article I recall, but here are a couple similar:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/unintended-accelera...

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-w...

[saaby93]

mko9 said:

I recall when Toyota was having the "unintended acceleration" issue, one of the US car mags - Road & Track or Car & Driver - did a test of the Toyota in question and found with the accelerator floored you could still stop the car with the brakes repeatedly. Even in a Ford Mustang GT500, you could stop the car easily once and with considerable brake fade a second time.

I can't seem to find the specific article I recall, but here are a couple similar:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/unintended-accelera...

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-w...

Thats with a fully working accelerator though
Now try it with the accelerator software in a pickle. Does it try to compensate for the brakes or even tell them to let go - you know what ABS does

[don4l]

WatchfulEye said:

saaby93 said:

without reading the whole topic - wasnt the toyota issue that the software in the accelerator broke so it was telling the car to accelerate fully even though the driver was feet off?

The Toyota issue was the footwell mat slipping forward, and the lip of the accelerator pedal then getting caught under the edge of the mat after a hard acceleration. Toyota ended up recalling the cars to fit new mat grip hooks and new accelerator pedals with stronger return springs. This happened to me, and while somewhat surprising, the accelerator was not "floored" and the amount of excessive acceleration was only moderate, and moderate pressure on the brake rapidly stopped the car.

I used to have a Lexus GS300.

The accelerator pedal got trapped under the floor mat a few times.

The first time it absolutely scared the life out of me.

[davepoth]

Sylvaforever said:

how old was the car and what engine?

I believe it's a Mk3 as the Mk1 and Mk2 Octavias didn't have keyless start - at least according to the manuals I found online.

[PhillipM]

saaby93 said:

Thats with a fully working accelerator though
Now try it with the accelerator software in a pickle. Does it try to compensate for the brakes or even tell them to let go - you know what ABS does

The brake system has authority over the accelerator in all those systems.

[WatchfulEye]

saaby93 said:

retty sure the footwell mat slipping idea was a guess that never worked out in practice.
Yes they issued extra retainers but apparently the issue still occurred, which is when they started digging deeper into failure modes in the accelerator software, which seemed to be 'if everything works as it should, everything is fine' - if it doesnt anything could happen.

The floor mat anchor design was the official cause found by the US government investigation, together with "driver error".
The official investigation was unable to link software flaws with the reported episodes. There was extensive evidence of bad software engineering practice, and investigators did manage to find failure a failure sequence which could result in a failure to close the throttle. However, investigators could not find any credible explanation for a vehicle which continued to accelerate despite brake application.

The problem was not so much that the floor mat anchor redesign/accelerator pedal redesign didn't fix the problem; it did. The problem was that toyota used the same pedal/mat design in numerous models. However, they only recalled models where there were a number unintended acceleration incidents, and hushed up the issue for models using the same parts until the government regulator made their own widened scope investigation.

[Ian974]

saaby93 said:

Thats with a fully working accelerator though
Now try it with the accelerator software in a pickle. Does it try to compensate for the brakes or even tell them to let go - you know what ABS does

I cant see how the throttle software playing up would release the brakes. Brakes can overrule the throttle, throttle can't overrule the brakes, there is still a mechanical system linking the brakes to the pedal regardless of whether the throttle is electronic. If the throttle was fully open there isn't anything it could do further to reduce the drivers effort to brake.

[davepoth]

Ian974 said:

I cant see how the throttle software playing up would release the brakes. Brakes can overrule the throttle, throttle can't overrule the brakes, there is still a mechanical system linking the brakes to the pedal regardless of whether the throttle is electronic. If the throttle was fully open there isn't anything it could do further to reduce the drivers effort to brake.

I just thought of one. If the throttle is wide open the manifold vacuum is reduced. If the driver has made a number of sharp but short applications on the brakes they might find that there was reduced servo assistance.

[dandarez]

Telling bit?

At the time of the impact the speed of the vehicle was 94 mph.

The accelerator pedal is 'recorded' as being depressed fully at 5 seconds prior to the impact.

Not depressed 'at all' at 1.5 seconds prior to the impact.

Suicide.
Foot to the floor, foot off as impact is imminent.

Who knows? Will anyone ever know?

[Vipers]

Do not ignore the fact it could be a fault, Fords had a similar spate of accidents, until they admitted there was a problem.

But as you say, who knows?

[saaby93]

dandarez said:

Telling bit?

At the time of the impact the speed of the vehicle was 94 mph.

The accelerator pedal is 'recorded' as being depressed fully at 5 seconds prior to the impact.

Not depressed 'at all' at 1.5 seconds prior to the impact.

It wasnt a video recorder - just an output of a sensor conditioned by some software either of which could be faulty

Remember that plane crash off Brazil where the plane had a faulty altitude sensor which didnt matter because surely either the computer or the pilot would realise, surely oh

[ging84]

The other bit i don't get is how was he on the phone for 8 minutes before anyone discussed pulling on the handbrake?

[motco]

Don't know about your handbrake but mine is a poor substitute for a strong push on the pedal!