Fidel Castro is dead
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Just listened.
Apparently Ken doesn't mind dictators - as long as they are the right shade politically.
No surprises there then.
Well down Mishal Husain for putting him on the spot and make him sound the spluttering fool he is.
If you think defending Castro is a bit iffy for a Labour politician, let Diane Abbott stun you with her defence of another.Apparently Ken doesn't mind dictators - as long as they are the right shade politically.
No surprises there then.
Well down Mishal Husain for putting him on the spot and make him sound the spluttering fool he is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4o5n2EGyA
Deptford Draylons said:
If you think defending Castro is a bit iffy for a Labour politician, let Diane Abbott stun you with her defence of another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4o5n2EGyA
The stupid is strong in that padawanhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4o5n2EGyA
techiedave said:
Eric Mc said:
Dianne Abbot is always stunning - for all the wrong reasons.
I can see another collection of piccies coming onEric - I did warn you of the consequences - I'm not to blame for the result......
Well not of Techiedave's inevitable splurg of images
Having just been to Cuba in the summer, it is hard for us to appreciate the situation via the west media.
Speaking with people there, who were not tourist guides the history of the island is fascinating, to say the least.
Batista was the classical dictator who ruled with fear and corruption. He was responsible for thousands of deaths and was clearly in the pay of the Mafia who saw Cuba as somewhere they could use their illegal money.
The revolution was popular with the vast majority who did not get anything from those in charge. The three leaders were, Castro, Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegous, the later being the choice of the people to lead them, but he died in an air crash that some still do not believe was an accident leaving the Castro's to rule, especially when Che was killed in another revolution he was fighting in.
After the revolution conditions for the poor improved and they had health care and education but no freedom. For many that was worth more than the freedom others craved. Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned so they stopped it for every one except trusted government members.
What kept Cuba in the dark ages in many ways was Castro and the hatred of the West towards him and the sanctions did harm everywhere. In the same way as Mugabe, Castro gave every one some land to farm, but now they import food as they cannot feed themselves. Now it is China who are working with them on oil and gas projects and Spain on investing in hotels to bring in tourists.
They swapped one dictator for another type, one which for many was much better than they had. They have a lot of well educated people who can go no where and have lost the will to do better. Even though there were changes coming via Raul, they are too slow but this may accelerate those good changes.
The people there deserve the freedom promised, they deserve being part of a much wider world not just pawns in an East V West ideology battle. I hope his death gives those in charge now the courage to make the changes much quicker than they would be as it is a beautiful island with warm hearted people which is crying out for relaxation of controls.
Speaking with people there, who were not tourist guides the history of the island is fascinating, to say the least.
Batista was the classical dictator who ruled with fear and corruption. He was responsible for thousands of deaths and was clearly in the pay of the Mafia who saw Cuba as somewhere they could use their illegal money.
The revolution was popular with the vast majority who did not get anything from those in charge. The three leaders were, Castro, Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegous, the later being the choice of the people to lead them, but he died in an air crash that some still do not believe was an accident leaving the Castro's to rule, especially when Che was killed in another revolution he was fighting in.
After the revolution conditions for the poor improved and they had health care and education but no freedom. For many that was worth more than the freedom others craved. Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned so they stopped it for every one except trusted government members.
What kept Cuba in the dark ages in many ways was Castro and the hatred of the West towards him and the sanctions did harm everywhere. In the same way as Mugabe, Castro gave every one some land to farm, but now they import food as they cannot feed themselves. Now it is China who are working with them on oil and gas projects and Spain on investing in hotels to bring in tourists.
They swapped one dictator for another type, one which for many was much better than they had. They have a lot of well educated people who can go no where and have lost the will to do better. Even though there were changes coming via Raul, they are too slow but this may accelerate those good changes.
The people there deserve the freedom promised, they deserve being part of a much wider world not just pawns in an East V West ideology battle. I hope his death gives those in charge now the courage to make the changes much quicker than they would be as it is a beautiful island with warm hearted people which is crying out for relaxation of controls.
Eric Mc said:
By and large, he was popular with most of the people in Cuba - which is more than how we tend to view our leaders.
That's not what I found when I visited Cuba about 3 years ago.I stayed in casa particulares (Cuban equivalent of Airbnb) when travelling around the island. I had some very interesting chats with our host in Cienfuegos who said "A lot of the revolutionaries and their generation now think that the Cuba we have is not what they fought for".
Another woman of about 30 that we met in Havana said the her grandmother's view was "Some people now have phones and TV but food is rationed and we don't have enough. Under Batista we were poor but we had enough food. Is this progress?"
I'll acknowledge that Castro increased literacy from about 65% to as near to 100% as makes no difference. I'll also acknowledge that there is free healthcare for everyone. However if the healthcare is free but the State can't afford the drugs/treatment what use is that - particularly when they have the money to send troops to fight in Angola (1980s?).
The average monthly salary in Cuba is about $25 (USD). The best paid "ordinary" people are the Police on about $40. If everyone is so happy why are the Police the best paid people?
douglasb said:
Eric Mc said:
By and large, he was popular with most of the people in Cuba - which is more than how we tend to view our leaders.
That's not what I found when I visited Cuba about 3 years ago.I stayed in casa particulares (Cuban equivalent of Airbnb) when travelling around the island. I had some very interesting chats with our host in Cienfuegos who said "A lot of the revolutionaries and their generation now think that the Cuba we have is not what they fought for".
Another woman of about 30 that we met in Havana said the her grandmother's view was "Some people now have phones and TV but food is rationed and we don't have enough. Under Batista we were poor but we had enough food. Is this progress?"
I'll acknowledge that Castro increased literacy from about 65% to as near to 100% as makes no difference. I'll also acknowledge that there is free healthcare for everyone. However if the healthcare is free but the State can't afford the drugs/treatment what use is that - particularly when they have the money to send troops to fight in Angola (1980s?).
The average monthly salary in Cuba is about $25 (USD). The best paid "ordinary" people are the Police on about $40. If everyone is so happy why are the Police the best paid people?
As for the food, I was not told it was rationed although everything has to be accounted for. We spent time on a farm where everything was registered (well almost everything) and the distribution was agreed. At no time was I told people were short of food and these were normal people we were with.
My daughter is a Doctor so was interested in their health care, again we were told by several people that they got what was needed free. There was no mention of the state not being able to afford drugs. Doctors are paid one of the highest salaries, but it is the same as the police.
Not everyone is happy, far from it, but it is not as bad as the western media would have you believe. What the state does do is stifle anyone who wants to be outside the system. A bit like Russia before the changes were allowed. A few are very rich now but many ordinary people worse off.
spaximus said:
As for the food, I was not told it was rationed although everything has to be accounted for. We spent time on a farm where everything was registered (well almost everything) and the distribution was agreed. At no time was I told people were short of food and these were normal people we were with.
The woman in Havana told us about food rationing. Basically each person is allocated a certain amount of rice, chicken, pork, eggs, oil, matches, soap and so on per month. They have to register with a shop for each of these things and that is where they get their monthly ration of that product. There are no supermarkets where they can go and buy the lot. The rationed food is very cheap but it isn't free.The woman in Havana took us off the tourist route and showed us some of these shops. I very quickly got the impression that we weren't very welcome....
Tony in Cienfuegos told us that his ration (and he showed me his ration book) is 5 eggs per month. (I don't remember the quantities for the other items, but it isn't enought to live on). Each rationed egg costs about 5 US cents. If the egg shop has enough eggs to supply all the people registered to buy eggs from them they can sell surplus eggs. These surplus eggs will cost about 15 cents. Alternatively, if you have access to CUC (Cuban convertible pesos) you can buy things in shops where there are no restrictions and no rationing - however an egg costs 35 cents. 85% of the population of Cuba don't have access to CUCs.
Tony's wife is a lawyer on about $50 (in local currency) per month (so one of the best paid people in Cuba on a State income). We paid about $50 per night (in convertible pesos) for a room in Tony's house.
Tony could quite happily cook a three egg omelette for breakfast for us as he has access to CUCs and can buy what he wants. Most Cubans are not in the same position.
(And on a PH point, he has a 1959 Cadillac Eldorado. He thinks that there are only two on the island and that his is better! A highlight of the trip was to be taken to a waterfront restaurant being driven by Tony in the Cadillac!)
It's funny listening to the usual pillocks like Corbyn and Livingston eulogising Castro, dribbling about healthcare and education whilst glossing over the fact that tens of thousands of Cubans a year pack themselves and their families onto unseaworthy deathtraps to escape the grinding poverty of their wonderful lefty nirvana. I spend most of my time in the Caribbean and the poor b
ds wash up on our shores half dead but happy every week. The greatest tragedy of Castro's death is that fvckwits like Corbyn and Livingstone have outlived him.
ds wash up on our shores half dead but happy every week. The greatest tragedy of Castro's death is that fvckwits like Corbyn and Livingstone have outlived him.fblm said:
It's funny listening to the usual pillocks like Corbyn and Livingston eulogising Castro, dribbling about healthcare and education whilst glossing over the fact that tens of thousands of Cubans a year pack themselves and their families onto unseaworthy deathtraps to escape the grinding poverty of their wonderful lefty nirvana. I spend most of my time in the Caribbean and the poor bds wash up on our shores half dead but happy every week. The greatest tragedy of Castro's death is that fvckwits like Corbyn and Livingstone have outlived him.
Indeed ds wash up on our shores half dead but happy every week. The greatest tragedy of Castro's death is that fvckwits like Corbyn and Livingstone have outlived him.If Communism was that great they wouldn't need armed guards to keep the people there.
spaximus said:
Having just been to Cuba in the summer, it is hard for us to appreciate the situation via the west media.
Speaking with people there, who were not tourist guides the history of the island is fascinating, to say the least.
Batista was the classical dictator who ruled with fear and corruption. He was responsible for thousands of deaths and was clearly in the pay of the Mafia who saw Cuba as somewhere they could use their illegal money.
The revolution was popular with the vast majority who did not get anything from those in charge. The three leaders were, Castro, Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegous, the later being the choice of the people to lead them, but he died in an air crash that some still do not believe was an accident leaving the Castro's to rule, especially when Che was killed in another revolution he was fighting in.
After the revolution conditions for the poor improved and they had health care and education but no freedom. For many that was worth more than the freedom others craved. Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned so they stopped it for every one except trusted government members.
What kept Cuba in the dark ages in many ways was Castro and the hatred of the West towards him and the sanctions did harm everywhere. In the same way as Mugabe, Castro gave every one some land to farm, but now they import food as they cannot feed themselves. Now it is China who are working with them on oil and gas projects and Spain on investing in hotels to bring in tourists.
They swapped one dictator for another type, one which for many was much better than they had. They have a lot of well educated people who can go no where and have lost the will to do better. Even though there were changes coming via Raul, they are too slow but this may accelerate those good changes.
The people there deserve the freedom promised, they deserve being part of a much wider world not just pawns in an East V West ideology battle. I hope his death gives those in charge now the courage to make the changes much quicker than they would be as it is a beautiful island with warm hearted people which is crying out for relaxation of controls.
Speaking with people there, who were not tourist guides the history of the island is fascinating, to say the least.
Batista was the classical dictator who ruled with fear and corruption. He was responsible for thousands of deaths and was clearly in the pay of the Mafia who saw Cuba as somewhere they could use their illegal money.
The revolution was popular with the vast majority who did not get anything from those in charge. The three leaders were, Castro, Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegous, the later being the choice of the people to lead them, but he died in an air crash that some still do not believe was an accident leaving the Castro's to rule, especially when Che was killed in another revolution he was fighting in.
After the revolution conditions for the poor improved and they had health care and education but no freedom. For many that was worth more than the freedom others craved. Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned so they stopped it for every one except trusted government members.
What kept Cuba in the dark ages in many ways was Castro and the hatred of the West towards him and the sanctions did harm everywhere. In the same way as Mugabe, Castro gave every one some land to farm, but now they import food as they cannot feed themselves. Now it is China who are working with them on oil and gas projects and Spain on investing in hotels to bring in tourists.
They swapped one dictator for another type, one which for many was much better than they had. They have a lot of well educated people who can go no where and have lost the will to do better. Even though there were changes coming via Raul, they are too slow but this may accelerate those good changes.
The people there deserve the freedom promised, they deserve being part of a much wider world not just pawns in an East V West ideology battle. I hope his death gives those in charge now the courage to make the changes much quicker than they would be as it is a beautiful island with warm hearted people which is crying out for relaxation of controls.
"Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned".....
I think that sums up how he was viewed by Cubans.
Good riddance, a few decades too late. Get rid of his sibling and the people might have a chance of a life.
REALIST123 said:
spaximus said:
Having just been to Cuba in the summer, it is hard for us to appreciate the situation via the west media.
Speaking with people there, who were not tourist guides the history of the island is fascinating, to say the least.
Batista was the classical dictator who ruled with fear and corruption. He was responsible for thousands of deaths and was clearly in the pay of the Mafia who saw Cuba as somewhere they could use their illegal money.
The revolution was popular with the vast majority who did not get anything from those in charge. The three leaders were, Castro, Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegous, the later being the choice of the people to lead them, but he died in an air crash that some still do not believe was an accident leaving the Castro's to rule, especially when Che was killed in another revolution he was fighting in.
After the revolution conditions for the poor improved and they had health care and education but no freedom. For many that was worth more than the freedom others craved. Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned so they stopped it for every one except trusted government members.
What kept Cuba in the dark ages in many ways was Castro and the hatred of the West towards him and the sanctions did harm everywhere. In the same way as Mugabe, Castro gave every one some land to farm, but now they import food as they cannot feed themselves. Now it is China who are working with them on oil and gas projects and Spain on investing in hotels to bring in tourists.
They swapped one dictator for another type, one which for many was much better than they had. They have a lot of well educated people who can go no where and have lost the will to do better. Even though there were changes coming via Raul, they are too slow but this may accelerate those good changes.
The people there deserve the freedom promised, they deserve being part of a much wider world not just pawns in an East V West ideology battle. I hope his death gives those in charge now the courage to make the changes much quicker than they would be as it is a beautiful island with warm hearted people which is crying out for relaxation of controls.
Speaking with people there, who were not tourist guides the history of the island is fascinating, to say the least.
Batista was the classical dictator who ruled with fear and corruption. He was responsible for thousands of deaths and was clearly in the pay of the Mafia who saw Cuba as somewhere they could use their illegal money.
The revolution was popular with the vast majority who did not get anything from those in charge. The three leaders were, Castro, Che Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegous, the later being the choice of the people to lead them, but he died in an air crash that some still do not believe was an accident leaving the Castro's to rule, especially when Che was killed in another revolution he was fighting in.
After the revolution conditions for the poor improved and they had health care and education but no freedom. For many that was worth more than the freedom others craved. Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned so they stopped it for every one except trusted government members.
What kept Cuba in the dark ages in many ways was Castro and the hatred of the West towards him and the sanctions did harm everywhere. In the same way as Mugabe, Castro gave every one some land to farm, but now they import food as they cannot feed themselves. Now it is China who are working with them on oil and gas projects and Spain on investing in hotels to bring in tourists.
They swapped one dictator for another type, one which for many was much better than they had. They have a lot of well educated people who can go no where and have lost the will to do better. Even though there were changes coming via Raul, they are too slow but this may accelerate those good changes.
The people there deserve the freedom promised, they deserve being part of a much wider world not just pawns in an East V West ideology battle. I hope his death gives those in charge now the courage to make the changes much quicker than they would be as it is a beautiful island with warm hearted people which is crying out for relaxation of controls.
"Every time they relaxed travel 50% never returned".....
I think that sums up how he was viewed by Cubans.
Good riddance, a few decades too late. Get rid of his sibling and the people might have a chance of a life.
We were taken around by two different people, one was a professor who make more in tips from tourists than in salary, the other was a guide who took us all around Havana to places where locals went. I saw the shops that were mentioned earlier and we ate in local places where you would not find them on your own.
Both were not happy the way things were, but again both said they had no idea how it would have been had Batista still been allowed to carry on as he did.
It is hard for us to grasp how it must have been and how it is now for young people. They can see American TV and see all that there was to offer elsewhere, which they cannot have.
And for balance, I have some friends in Florida whose son in law is Cuban. His family hated Castro but they lost their lucrative business in the revolution so it is not hard to see why they felt that way.
I really hope things change for the good now as his grip was still strong
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