Fidel Castro is dead
Discussion
douglasb said:
Eric Mc said:
By and large, he was popular with most of the people in Cuba - which is more than how we tend to view our leaders.
That's not what I found when I visited Cuba about 3 years ago.I stayed in casa particulares (Cuban equivalent of Airbnb) when travelling around the island. I had some very interesting chats with our host in Cienfuegos who said "A lot of the revolutionaries and their generation now think that the Cuba we have is not what they fought for".
Another woman of about 30 that we met in Havana said the her grandmother's view was "Some people now have phones and TV but food is rationed and we don't have enough. Under Batista we were poor but we had enough food. Is this progress?"
I'll acknowledge that Castro increased literacy from about 65% to as near to 100% as makes no difference. I'll also acknowledge that there is free healthcare for everyone. However if the healthcare is free but the State can't afford the drugs/treatment what use is that - particularly when they have the money to send troops to fight in Angola (1980s?).
The average monthly salary in Cuba is about $25 (USD). The best paid "ordinary" people are the Police on about $40. If everyone is so happy why are the Police the best paid people?
Are you not forgetting the long standing embargo? And the fact, re health care, until very recently the Cuban life expectancy was almost on a par with us here in the UK!
We were in Cuba some years back. I remember someone telling me (here) don't wear any camouflage shorts you'll get arrested! f
king hell, the misinformation about Cuba verges on the paranoid. Anyway, beside staying in the usual (hidden away from the reality) resorts and hotels, we also went on our tod for days to explore Havana ourselves, not with some guide or tour operater, and stayed in the famous Hotel Nacional for 3 days.
Christ, yes, there was deprivation everywhere. BUT the people I still rate as the friendliest I have ever met anywhere in the world. I have said this before, but I'll repeat it. We went off walking around Havana, and decided to venture the many back streets... we like walking, the best way to keep fit when you start knocking on. f
k the gym! At first, it was more than slightly unnerving (similar situations anywhere else in the world that 'looked' like this and you'd expect to be attacked or fleeced or much worse. Here? Nah, the most we got was a bit of begging for money or goods, but not in a pushy way, they are far too clever for that - they 'know' what would happen to them! After a few days of this I realised just how safe it was. VERY safe!Then I got ill. Long story short. Trouble down below - prostate. I really did not want to see any docs there, you know, I believed all the s
t said about this country. I just wanted to get back home. My wife pushed me to see someone as I got worse. And f. painful! A Friday I think it was. Going home Monday. I was that bad, I capitulated before the pain got worse, I couldn't pee anymore, and well, my misses marching me to the docs! That would have been more embarrassing 
Wow!
No booking. Just queue and wait until you can see a doc. Well, as it turned out I didn't see a doc, you see a highly qualified nurse. Spoke English. She examines you, if she thinks it needs it, she calls a Doc, who arrives... my eyes pop open
she looks more like a lady you'd dance with under the Mango tree. She could most certainly have taught a lot of young girls in the UK how not just to start a Nail Parlour but succeed! As for her high elaborate immaculate hair... 
Within mins of her seeing me (she couldn't speak a word of English) I had antibiotics in my hand and some other pills and in no uncertain terms to start them immediately. If I had still been there on Monday I would have had an ultrasound scan. A jab in the butt was available to me if needed to cope with the pain and to make the journey home as it was 10 hours. Final parting shot was 'when you get back to England you must see a doctor upon landing' to get this scan done. 'Ok, I'll make an appointment as soon as I get back'. Nurse conveys to doc and both looked at each other in total amazement and nurse says 'You HAVE to make an appointment?' They were both gobsmacked.
Anyway, back in Blighty, I did try first thing. I really did! 'Sorry, earliest you can see someone is Friday'. But it's important apparently. 'Is it an emergency?' How TF do I know, that's why I need to see a doc!' My misses wanted me to go straight to A&E but I'm a bloke! F. sitting around for hours - been there, done it.
When I did see doc, doc says 'what meds did the Cuban doc put you on?' 'These!' showing the packs. 'We'll continue with those then.' I asked then about a scan. Nah but give us a wee sample... you can guess the rest. No scan.
Later I get more problems down below, one morning in shower I feel a 'lump' inside one of my danglies! I'd read if inside it's 90% chance of that nasty f...!!! Oh s
t! Back to doc. He fiddles with his finger where I don't like being felt. Prostate is enlarged. I think we need to get you an ultrasound scan - oh super! how bloody long ago was it I could have had one in Cuba? F. months!!So, unless I pay, it's now another load of weeks to pass by before I can go for a scan.
I ask the nice young nurse doing the scan while I hold my todger out of the way, ans she puts all this cold jelly everywhere, has she found anything?
Yep, another lump in your right ball. (well, she didn't exactly say that but you get the drift).
Oh f
k! (that's me thinking quietly). What happens next?
I'll pass the results onto your 'health professional' (oh save me from the pc talk!) and he or she will contact you in around 2 weeks.
2 WEEKS!
I've got to mull around wondering what the f is up with me for a fortnight?
Sorry, that's the way it works.
I just kept on until she eventually tells me they are in her opinion both benign, just epididymal cysts.
And?
If they get bigger, they can be removed.
I went home, stopped worrying. My 'health professional' never contacted me.
A few months later, both had disappeared. Completely!
Motto: don't read health s
t online, it can make you worry unnecessarily. ASK questions!Oh back on topic and all those who denigrate Cuba, when I worked at a Uni years back, a young 18 year old student whom I got on really well with, died of Meningitis B. Where are we today in the UK? Still squabbling about the cost of a vaccine. Cuba had a vaccine for MenB in the 80s. Look up the vaccine VA-MENGOC-BC.
I wouldn't want to live in Cuba, that's for sure. But rather than read the s
t about Cuba and a lot of it is pure st, anyone would think Batista era was all love and jam. My advice? Go there before it changes forever and ends up with a f. McLibel's on every corner.
It really was nice, in a odd sort of way, being out of touch with the 24-7 world. A country where until very recently their life expectancy was almost on a par with ours here. Think about that!
I'm definitely going back before it changes.
AND of course, don't forget, if you're a PH'r there is something to behold. Probably, once it changes, they'll all disappear.
One of them is missing out of this pic, what is it, how do you know it's taken in Cuba (Havana)?
Trabi601 said:
many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
Whilst the transition hasn't gone as well as people might have hoped, at least you can now escape to the West, or basically anywhere else ..
The Spruce goose said:
i knew someone who escaped from cuba, it was not a pleasant place. spies on corners, minimum wages, not much choice.
but a great health care system and education.
To be honest you could say the same about the UK, the spies are cctv cameras, many people are on minimum wages, there may be choice but mostly it is the same crap packaged differently , not sure about the health care system and education being great though.but a great health care system and education.
greygoose said:
Haven't they swapped a lot of the old engines out or was that just a CIA rumour to hate them?
The old American cars are an iconic image of Havana but the reality is 9/10 of them would not even be salvageable into roadworthy cars in the west. Swapped engines? Try swapped everything, with the body work held together with tin cans painted with Dulux. Most of the cars are just crappy modern Asian boxes. People have this romantic image of Cuba but it's not real. The people are indeed lovely but terrified of the state, the healthcare and education are excellent but the housing would be condemned anywhere else (imagine a nice house now half the ceiling height and squeeze another floor in!) The shops are completely empty and the food is terrible. Fortunately the rum is excellent but the place is a complete dump (albeit with an amazing charm/beautiful people).fblm said:
The old American cars are an iconic image of Havana but the reality is 9/10 of them would not even be salvageable into roadworthy cars in the west. Swapped engines? Try swapped everything, with the body work held together with tin cans painted with Dulux. Most of the cars are just crappy modern Asian boxes. People have this romantic image of Cuba but it's not real. The people are indeed lovely but terrified of the state, the healthcare and education are excellent but the housing would be condemned anywhere else (imagine a nice house now half the ceiling height and squeeze another floor in!) The shops are completely empty and the food is terrible. Fortunately the rum is excellent but the place is a complete dump (albeit with an amazing charm/beautiful people).
That was much the same for most of the Caribbean Islands when I went there, Haiti was obviously the worst as still recovering from the earthquake. They have lovely weather but the locals are generally very poor.greygoose said:
The Spruce goose said:
i knew someone who escaped from cuba, it was not a pleasant place. spies on corners, minimum wages, not much choice.
but a great health care system and education.
To be honest you could say the same about the UK, the spies are cctv cameras, many people are on minimum wages, there may be choice but mostly it is the same crap packaged differently , not sure about the health care system and education being great though.but a great health care system and education.
Two currencies are used though the government is in the process of unifying both now I believe.
When we went there were convertibles (CUC$) and pesos (moneda nacional; MN$) in circulation. I wanted some genuine neat notes in actual Cuba $ to bring home so offered a couple tourist notes to them, worth to us about a fiver. They thought bloody Xmas had come!
They were so excited that they gave me several of their own notes in exchange. On chatting to someone later in the day I believe I had given the equiv of 6 months wages!
dandarez said:
We chatted to a bunch of students while wandering Havana. Well, they chat to you! Very bright and very alert. They'll do anything to get you to part with money (nicely, though. They were courtesy personified!) to buy themselves more books whatever. They don't pester and f. off, you'll get something in return, like a tour of somewhere. We were taken round for an hour. They didn't give up. English was spoken superbly.
Two currencies are used though the government is in the process of unifying both now I believe.
When we went there were convertibles (CUC$) and pesos (moneda nacional; MN$) in circulation. I wanted some genuine neat notes in actual Cuba $ to bring home so offered a couple tourist notes to them, worth to us about a fiver. They thought bloody Xmas had come!
They were so excited that they gave me several of their own notes in exchange. On chatting to someone later in the day I believe I had given the equiv of 6 months wages!
That's one of the best things about travelling to be honest, you realise everyone is just the same and politics are load of rubbish labels to divide people. I remember talking to an Iranian interpreter and he had fled Iran when the Shah was in charge, after he was imprisoned for buying a tyre machine from a company in Europe that the Shah took against after he ordered it. Revolutions generally happen because the leader is an idiot who treats his people badly.Two currencies are used though the government is in the process of unifying both now I believe.
When we went there were convertibles (CUC$) and pesos (moneda nacional; MN$) in circulation. I wanted some genuine neat notes in actual Cuba $ to bring home so offered a couple tourist notes to them, worth to us about a fiver. They thought bloody Xmas had come!
They were so excited that they gave me several of their own notes in exchange. On chatting to someone later in the day I believe I had given the equiv of 6 months wages!
fblm said:
greygoose said:
Haven't they swapped a lot of the old engines out or was that just a CIA rumour to hate them?
The old American cars are an iconic image of Havana but the reality is 9/10 of them would not even be salvageable into roadworthy cars in the west. Swapped engines? Try swapped everything, with the body work held together with tin cans painted with Dulux. Most of the cars are just crappy modern Asian boxes. People have this romantic image of Cuba but it's not real. The people are indeed lovely but terrified of the state, the healthcare and education are excellent but the housing would be condemned anywhere else (imagine a nice house now half the ceiling height and squeeze another floor in!) The shops are completely empty and the food is terrible. Fortunately the rum is excellent but the place is a complete dump (albeit with an amazing charm/beautiful people).king great crows were landing on the tables and took food off your plate or even off your fork (just as well!). Not hygienic at all! But we ate in some that were nice. I can say the same here, I've eaten is places that should be closed down! But to be fair, there were no bloody huge crows on the table. Look around at home now, the state of our roads - we shouldn't have f. potholes everywhere, the 5th largest economy in the world. You expect Cuba to have them. The other thing I should say is we didn't get far without bumping into Canadians. They seem to adore the place. You could always spot them carrying their 'jugs' of whatever. Bit like here now how everyone seems to walk around with a coffee in the street.
Yes, lots of ifs and buts, however, I would love to go again before the fast food and big business moguls moves in.
dandarez said:
douglasb said:
Eric Mc said:
By and large, he was popular with most of the people in Cuba - which is more than how we tend to view our leaders.
That's not what I found when I visited Cuba about 3 years ago.I stayed in casa particulares (Cuban equivalent of Airbnb) when travelling around the island. I had some very interesting chats with our host in Cienfuegos who said "A lot of the revolutionaries and their generation now think that the Cuba we have is not what they fought for".
Another woman of about 30 that we met in Havana said the her grandmother's view was "Some people now have phones and TV but food is rationed and we don't have enough. Under Batista we were poor but we had enough food. Is this progress?"
I'll acknowledge that Castro increased literacy from about 65% to as near to 100% as makes no difference. I'll also acknowledge that there is free healthcare for everyone. However if the healthcare is free but the State can't afford the drugs/treatment what use is that - particularly when they have the money to send troops to fight in Angola (1980s?).
The average monthly salary in Cuba is about $25 (USD). The best paid "ordinary" people are the Police on about $40. If everyone is so happy why are the Police the best paid people?
Are you not forgetting the long standing embargo? And the fact, re health care, until very recently the Cuban life expectancy was almost on a par with us here in the UK!
We were in Cuba some years back. I remember someone telling me (here) don't wear any camouflage shorts you'll get arrested! f
king hell, the misinformation about Cuba verges on the paranoid. Anyway, beside staying in the usual (hidden away from the reality) resorts and hotels, we also went on our tod for days to explore Havana ourselves, not with some guide or tour operater, and stayed in the famous Hotel Nacional for 3 days.
Christ, yes, there was deprivation everywhere. BUT the people I still rate as the friendliest I have ever met anywhere in the world. I have said this before, but I'll repeat it. We went off walking around Havana, and decided to venture the many back streets... we like walking, the best way to keep fit when you start knocking on. f
k the gym! At first, it was more than slightly unnerving (similar situations anywhere else in the world that 'looked' like this and you'd expect to be attacked or fleeced or much worse. Here? Nah, the most we got was a bit of begging for money or goods, but not in a pushy way, they are far too clever for that - they 'know' what would happen to them! After a few days of this I realised just how safe it was. VERY safe!Then I got ill. Long story short. Trouble down below - prostate. I really did not want to see any docs there, you know, I believed all the s
t said about this country. I just wanted to get back home. My wife pushed me to see someone as I got worse. And f. painful! A Friday I think it was. Going home Monday. I was that bad, I capitulated before the pain got worse, I couldn't pee anymore, and well, my misses marching me to the docs! That would have been more embarrassing Wow!
No booking. Just queue and wait until you can see a doc. Well, as it turned out I didn't see a doc, you see a highly qualified nurse. Spoke English. She examines you, if she thinks it needs it, she calls a Doc, who arrives... my eyes pop open
she looks more like a lady you'd dance with under the Mango tree. She could most certainly have taught a lot of young girls in the UK how not just to start a Nail Parlour but succeed! As for her high elaborate immaculate hair... Within mins of her seeing me (she couldn't speak a word of English) I had antibiotics in my hand and some other pills and in no uncertain terms to start them immediately. If I had still been there on Monday I would have had an ultrasound scan. A jab in the butt was available to me if needed to cope with the pain and to make the journey home as it was 10 hours. Final parting shot was 'when you get back to England you must see a doctor upon landing' to get this scan done. 'Ok, I'll make an appointment as soon as I get back'. Nurse conveys to doc and both looked at each other in total amazement and nurse says 'You HAVE to make an appointment?' They were both gobsmacked.
Anyway, back in Blighty, I did try first thing. I really did! 'Sorry, earliest you can see someone is Friday'. But it's important apparently. 'Is it an emergency?' How TF do I know, that's why I need to see a doc!' My misses wanted me to go straight to A&E but I'm a bloke! F. sitting around for hours - been there, done it.
When I did see doc, doc says 'what meds did the Cuban doc put you on?' 'These!' showing the packs. 'We'll continue with those then.' I asked then about a scan. Nah but give us a wee sample... you can guess the rest. No scan.
Later I get more problems down below, one morning in shower I feel a 'lump' inside one of my danglies! I'd read if inside it's 90% chance of that nasty f...!!! Oh s
t! Back to doc. He fiddles with his finger where I don't like being felt. Prostate is enlarged. I think we need to get you an ultrasound scan - oh super! how bloody long ago was it I could have had one in Cuba? F. months!!So, unless I pay, it's now another load of weeks to pass by before I can go for a scan.
I ask the nice young nurse doing the scan while I hold my todger out of the way, ans she puts all this cold jelly everywhere, has she found anything?
Yep, another lump in your right ball. (well, she didn't exactly say that but you get the drift).
Oh f
k! (that's me thinking quietly). What happens next?
I'll pass the results onto your 'health professional' (oh save me from the pc talk!) and he or she will contact you in around 2 weeks.
2 WEEKS!
I've got to mull around wondering what the f is up with me for a fortnight?
Sorry, that's the way it works.
I just kept on until she eventually tells me they are in her opinion both benign, just epididymal cysts.
And?
If they get bigger, they can be removed.
I went home, stopped worrying. My 'health professional' never contacted me.
A few months later, both had disappeared. Completely!
Motto: don't read health s
t online, it can make you worry unnecessarily. ASK questions!Oh back on topic and all those who denigrate Cuba, when I worked at a Uni years back, a young 18 year old student whom I got on really well with, died of Meningitis B. Where are we today in the UK? Still squabbling about the cost of a vaccine. Cuba had a vaccine for MenB in the 80s. Look up the vaccine VA-MENGOC-BC.
I wouldn't want to live in Cuba, that's for sure. But rather than read the s
t about Cuba and a lot of it is pure st, anyone would think Batista era was all love and jam. My advice? Go there before it changes forever and ends up with a f. McLibel's on every corner.
It really was nice, in a odd sort of way, being out of touch with the 24-7 world. A country where until very recently their life expectancy was almost on a par with ours here. Think about that!
I'm definitely going back before it changes.
AND of course, don't forget, if you're a PH'r there is something to behold. Probably, once it changes, they'll all disappear.
One of them is missing out of this pic, what is it, how do you know it's taken in Cuba (Havana)?
johnfm said:
Guardian comments section...
...fk me. Hard to believe there really are diehard extreme leftists who really think like this.
Remember they are talking a man who had homosexuals rounded up for re education, held tortured and executed political prisoners, nearly started world war 3 and a war with D.R. And on and on. They worship him...f
k me. Hard to believe there really are diehard extreme leftists who really think like this.But trump says pussy and they lose their minds. Hilarious
Trabi601 said:
I see this very much like the former East German regime.
I wonder what people will be saying in 20-30 years time? - many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
Is this hackneyed Guardian mantra even true? I remember a few teachers and BBC types saying this in the mid 90s and it seemed to fade away after that. All the actual people I have met from the former USSR and it's satellite states think this is insane. One Bulgarian guy actually got quite angry at the suggestion that some people want to return to that.I wonder what people will be saying in 20-30 years time? - many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
Trabi601 said:
I see this very much like the former East German regime.
I wonder what people will be saying in 20-30 years time? - many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
LOLI wonder what people will be saying in 20-30 years time? - many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
Is this why they built the Berlin wall? To keep all the West Germans out who were desperately trying to get in? Or were they shooting the people trying to escape?
I note also thousands of people trying to get to Cuba by rickety boats...oh, wait. No, they don't.
If these places are so good for the people why are they not free to leave if they so wish?
SKP555 said:
Trabi601 said:
I see this very much like the former East German regime.
I wonder what people will be saying in 20-30 years time? - many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
Is this hackneyed Guardian mantra even true? I remember a few teachers and BBC types saying this in the mid 90s and it seemed to fade away after that. All the actual people I have met from the former USSR and it's satellite states think this is insane. One Bulgarian guy actually got quite angry at the suggestion that some people want to return to that.I wonder what people will be saying in 20-30 years time? - many former East Germans would happily embrace a return to the 'good old days' where you were guaranteed a home, a job and food on the table.
Trabi601 said:
It's all relative to how well you've done out of the reunification. The East suffered a massive population drain when the wall came down, it's still recovering. Whilst there has been some investment there, many people are unemployed, feeling the West and capitalism has let them down. It will come as no surprise that Die Linke have a strong following in former Eastern regions - it has to be said, however, this is mostly as a 2nd preference vote.
Admittedly from a limited understanding they seem to be a populist social democratic party concerned about minimum wage and stopping fracking rather than DDR hardcore wanting to rebuild the wall and bring back the STASI, so that everyone (who doesn't get killed) has a job, a house and, after 7 years and approval from the President, a shiny new Trabant.It’s quite a complex thing dismantling a country and starting again with a totally new ideology, so of course there will be some elements that feel worse to some people, and probably some people who think it's just not worth the trouble.
But, really, do you think a significant number people would return to the DDR days?
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