Quitaly - the Italians are next

[B'stard Child]

superlightr said:

B'stard Child said:

hifihigh said:

The EU reminds me of the Borg from Star Trek and being assimilated is not good for you.

I used that for my reason number 9......

Ever closer union - no ta junkers

I don't know I would happily assimilate with 7 of 9.

Leads nicely to my 10th reason to "Leave" - The continued expansion of the EU in terms of member states, the bending the rules/requirements to allow countries not in a stable position to join has acted as an enabler to allow established others already in the EU to also bend the rules - it's left the EU weaker not stronger IMO as what is the point of having rules for a club if there is no sanction for breaking them.

1951 - 6

Now 28 soon to be 27 (I hope)

[mikebradford]

I simply do not understand Schulz perspective.
I want ties with Europe.
We have shared history both good and bad. But we are well past historical issues.
I simply want to be able to live a life and do business with Europeans.
I dont want to become a generic faceless European entity.

All those quirks of different nationalities are the reason i go abroad.

So why is it that i cannot retain my own Quirky Miserable Northern Persona.



So as far as im concerned Schulz can go back to being full retard

[CrutyRammers]

mikebradford said:

I simply do not understand Schulz perspective.
I want ties with Europe.
We have shared history both good and bad. But we are well past historical issues.
I simply want to be able to live a life and do business with Europeans.
I dont want to become a generic faceless European entity.

All those quirks of different nationalities are the reason i go abroad.

So why is it that i cannot retain my own Quirky Miserable Northern Persona.

Nicely put.

[Digga]

CrutyRammers said:

mikebradford said:

I simply do not understand Schulz perspective.
I want ties with Europe.
We have shared history both good and bad. But we are well past historical issues.
I simply want to be able to live a life and do business with Europeans.
I dont want to become a generic faceless European entity.

All those quirks of different nationalities are the reason i go abroad.

So why is it that i cannot retain my own Quirky Miserable Northern Persona.

Nicely put.

Quite. The empire building bureaucrats don't want people to have regional or national character. They want people to think it's good and right to be treated as one, big homogeneous mass of drones.

Traveling is a joy because people are different; the UK, and within Europe, there are surprising changes. There are also surprising commonalities, so bits of neighbouring nations - e.g. Italy, Austria and Switzerland - can be very similar, even if they are not using the same language. It's inhuman to try and smooth this out and dumb it all down and call it all the same thing. Mindless philistinism.

[Digga]

So.. this just happened: https://www.ft.com/content/b0bbe20d-c7f2-327f-b15a...

FT said:

The European Central Bank’s supervisory arm has rejected a request from Italy to delay a market deal for Monte dei Paschi di Siena until mid-January, paving the way for the bail in of Italy’s third largest lender this weekend, according to a person close to the decision.

[r11co]

Digga said:

So.. this just happened: https://www.ft.com/content/b0bbe20d-c7f2-327f-b15a...

FT said:

The European Central Bank’s supervisory arm has rejected a request from Italy to delay a market deal for Monte dei Paschi di Siena until mid-January, paving the way for the bail in of Italy’s third largest lender this weekend, according to a person close to the decision.

The euro will not collapse. It will just float like any other currency, because the Italians will do what they always do - pretend to respect the Germans while waving the middle finger at them.

[Wills2]

Digga said:

So.. this just happened: https://www.ft.com/content/b0bbe20d-c7f2-327f-b15a...

FT said:

The European Central Bank’s supervisory arm has rejected a request from Italy to delay a market deal for Monte dei Paschi di Siena until mid-January, paving the way for the bail in of Italy’s third largest lender this weekend, according to a person close to the decision.

So just like Cyprus where the depositors took a haircut on their money? If so that will go down well.

[Yabu]

B'stard Child said:

hifihigh said:

The EU reminds me of the Borg from Star Trek and being assimilated is not good for you.

I used that for my reason number 9......

Ever closer union - no ta junkers

I've had dads army theme stuck in my head for a while, "eu(eeuuuu)do you think you are kidding mr junket, who do you think you are tring to kid...."

[FiF]

Wills2 said:

Digga said:

So.. this just happened: https://www.ft.com/content/b0bbe20d-c7f2-327f-b15a...

FT said:

The European Central Bank’s supervisory arm has rejected a request from Italy to delay a market deal for Monte dei Paschi di Siena until mid-January, paving the way for the bail in of Italy’s third largest lender this weekend, according to a person close to the decision.

So just like Cyprus where the depositors took a haircut on their money? If so that will go down well.

Italy going to nationalise the bank this weekend apparently. Bonds issued by the bank halved in an estimate of the haircut.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?...

[matsoc]

FiF said:

Italy going to nationalise the bank this weekend apparently. Bonds issued by the bank halved in an estimate of the haircut.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?...

Not this weekend but it is very likely that it will happen during next week even if I wouldn't bet money on it. Gentiloni or Padoan should have become the new prime minister by then. Even the opposition did not sharply opposed to nationalisation so I think it will happen. Talkings with president od the Repubblic Matterella will end this evening at 8 PM. I guess tomorrow the decision will be announced and the new government (with key ministers remainig the same) could be operative on Tuesday.

Edited by matsoc on Saturday 10th December 09:53

[davepoth]

Gentiloni announced as PM.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38281643

[cymtriks]

So, not Quitaly then?

[Digga]

If the state steps in, it will wipe out EU 5.5bn of bonds, roughly half of which are owned (for historic reasons,mpeculiar to Italy) ordinary private 'savers'. This is massive and IMHO will not be without significant and unprecedented fall out.

[mikebradford]

cymtriks said:

So, not Quitaly then?

Its a while until a general election. At which point the 5* party are believed to have a chance of getting some form of control.
If so many believe they may call for a referendum on staying in the EU. And if not a full fledged leave, there has been talk of them proposing leaving the Euro as a currency.

Regardless if any of those proposals come of it will be a big issue to the stability of the Eurozone as we know it.

The banking issues are simply a big issue that has been deferred.
The situation in Greece has been suspiciously quite as well. But i cant imagine for a minute their economy has made a big turn around.

Ultimately a lot of banking debt in the eurozone that is slowly coming back to haunt everyone.

Im sure the powers to be in the EU would have loved to have kept the Brexit news as the headline, and been seen to punish us simply to keep some of these in house EU issues hidden for a longer period of time.

I love the principle of a united EU in terms of some commonality.
But the structure as is and the leadership with their perceived we know best attitude, means i feel its going to fail.

[Enricogto]

mikebradford said:

If so many believe they may call for a referendum on staying in the EU. And if not a full fledged leave, there has been talk of them proposing leaving the Euro as a currency.

Can't happen, as the constitution actively forbids the affirmative referendum and any referendum on fiscal matters and treaties and agreements with foreign states. The M5S peddling this idea is, once again, a demonstration of their amateurism.

Art. 75 in here

Edited by Enricogto on Monday 12th December 13:23

[anonymous-user]

Constitutions can and are amended from time to time when required. That very act of asking for the constitution to be changed cost Renzi his job just a few days ago.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 12th December 13:23

[matsoc]

mikebradford said:

Its a while until a general election. At which point the 5* party are believed to have a chance of getting some form of control.
If so many believe they may call for a referendum on staying in the EU. And if not a full fledged leave, there has been talk of them proposing leaving the Euro as a currency.

General Elections will probably be in early June. But with a system that is going to become proportional the M5S won't have much control over the parliament even being for sure the most voted party. And anyway about leaving the Euro currency the party is split in two, I don't think an EU referendum will happen. If they will want to place a pm and a governemnt they will be forced to choose a conciliatory figure, able to take some of the parliamentary votes of the other parites.

Even if the Euro currency and the EU membership are an issue they are for sure the last issue of a long list. For instance Italy needs semplification in mid-level bureaucreacy, an overall fight against corruption and tax evasion and more spending on schools and universities.

[matsoc]

jsf said:

Constitutions can and are amended from time to time when required. That very act of asking for the constitution to be changed cost Renzi his job just a few days ago.

Edited by jsf on Monday 12th December 13:23

Yes, but constitutions have to be amended to improve them, not to make them worse changing most of its articles. You can't just try to take back to power to the centre and away from the regions in a country like Italy when the regions are so deeply different. You can't create a not-elective senate without specifying how it will be formed and without defining properly its functions. You can't transfom a constitution that is so simple and clear that can be taught in primary schools to something resembling an administrative code...

Even most of the people voting yes to the reform were saying that the reform was awful but they were in favor because Italy desperately needs a change, the direction doesn't matter...

[r11co]

Enricogto said:

The M5S peddling this idea is, once again, a demonstration of their amateurism.

The M5S make the SNP seem like old-stagers in that respect (and that is saying something).

[matsoc]

Enricogto said:

mikebradford said:

If so many believe they may call for a referendum on staying in the EU. And if not a full fledged leave, there has been talk of them proposing leaving the Euro as a currency.

Can't happen, as the constitution actively forbids the affirmative referendum and any referendum on fiscal matters and treaties and agreements with foreign states. The M5S peddling this idea is, once again, a demonstration of their amateurism.

Art. 75 in here

Edited by Enricogto on Monday 12th December 13:23

I agree obviously on article 75 but it dosent't mean much. The referendum would not be binding and the question would not be about the treaty.
But it would has an enormous political value. Once the majority of Italians express distrust in EU currency and EU membership in a vote the route for a change of the treaties is designated.

Don't get me wrong, the M5S are often amaterurs but not about this, they perfectly know what is the point.

It is the same as the equation between leader of a party that prevails in the election and prime minister. It is not in the constitution but it has been established as a common practice for the last 20 years. The prime minister is nominated by the president of the republic and he must have gets the vote of the parliament. He just can be eveybody, there is not even the need that he is elected as a member of the parliament.