Quitaly - the Italians are next
Discussion
r11co said:
Enricogto said:
The M5S peddling this idea is, once again, a demonstration of their amateurism.
The M5S make the SNP seem like old-stagers in that respect (and that is saying something).
The Italian political elite, indeed those in every single state where there is an uplift in the dislike/distrust of the EU, would be well advised to focus a serious amount of energy building a very strong/irrefutable case for why the EU is of benefit to their state.
That did not happen in the UK. Primarily because it could not be done despite 40yrs belonging to it, but also because of the downright arrogance of Remain proponents. Only by building such a case will the path we've taken be avoided IMO.
If there is an argument to be made on this front, it should be easier for the likes of Italy to make it as their position is somewhat different to ours.
Murph7355 said:
r11co said:
Enricogto said:
The M5S peddling this idea is, once again, a demonstration of their amateurism.
The M5S make the SNP seem like old-stagers in that respect (and that is saying something).
The Italian political elite, indeed those in every single state where there is an uplift in the dislike/distrust of the EU, would be well advised to focus a serious amount of energy building a very strong/irrefutable case for why the EU is of benefit to their state.
That did not happen in the UK. Primarily because it could not be done despite 40yrs belonging to it, but also because of the downright arrogance of Remain proponents. Only by building such a case will the path we've taken be avoided IMO.
If there is an argument to be made on this front, it should be easier for the likes of Italy to make it as their position is somewhat different to ours.
matsoc said:
jsf said:
Constitutions can and are amended from time to time when required. That very act of asking for the constitution to be changed cost Renzi his job just a few days ago.
Yes, but constitutions have to be amended to improve them, not to make them worse changing most of its articles. You can't just try to take back to power to the centre and away from the regions in a country like Italy when the regions are so deeply different. You can't create a not-elective senate without specifying how it will be formed and without defining properly its functions. You can't transfom a constitution that is so simple and clear that can be taught in primary schools to something resembling an administrative code...Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 12th December 13:23
Even most of the people voting yes to the reform were saying that the reform was awful but they were in favor because Italy desperately needs a change, the direction doesn't matter...
I was replying to someone who said they cant do anything because the constitution doesn't allow it. I said you can if you change the constitution, which can and does happen all over the world.
jsf said:
matsoc said:
jsf said:
Constitutions can and are amended from time to time when required. That very act of asking for the constitution to be changed cost Renzi his job just a few days ago.
Yes, but constitutions have to be amended to improve them, not to make them worse changing most of its articles. You can't just try to take back to power to the centre and away from the regions in a country like Italy when the regions are so deeply different. You can't create a not-elective senate without specifying how it will be formed and without defining properly its functions. You can't transfom a constitution that is so simple and clear that can be taught in primary schools to something resembling an administrative code...Edited by jsf on Monday 12th December 13:23
Even most of the people voting yes to the reform were saying that the reform was awful but they were in favor because Italy desperately needs a change, the direction doesn't matter...
I was replying to someone who said they cant do anything because the constitution doesn't allow it. I said you can if you change the constitution, which can and does happen all over the world.
Enricogto said:
Can't happen, as the constitution actively forbids the affirmative referendum and any referendum on fiscal matters and treaties and agreements with foreign states. The M5S peddling this idea is, once again, a demonstration of their amateurism.
Art. 75 in here
It wouldn't take that much surely? a M5S government elected on a "we'll get out of the Euro" ticket could just enact policies that would get them thrown out. It'd be amusing to see how far the ECB would go before they snapped. Art. 75 in here
Edited by Enricogto on Monday 12th December 13:23
davepoth said:
It wouldn't take that much surely? a M5S government elected on a "we'll get out of the Euro" ticket could just enact policies that would get them thrown out. It'd be amusing to see how far the ECB would go before they snapped.
They would struggle to get elected as they don't have with the current format the ability to gain a majority and they can't according to their ethos, for an alliance with the "old parties". Then they would need a qualified majority to change the constitution on a pretty substantial aspect (hint, it affects also fiscal policy and other international treaties). The change should be then subject to referendum where, exactly as happened with Renzi last week, everyone not supporting a M5S government (about 70% of the population) would vote against.Enricogto said:
davepoth said:
It wouldn't take that much surely? a M5S government elected on a "we'll get out of the Euro" ticket could just enact policies that would get them thrown out. It'd be amusing to see how far the ECB would go before they snapped.
They would struggle to get elected as they don't have with the current format the ability to gain a majority and they can't according to their ethos, for an alliance with the "old parties". Then they would need a qualified majority to change the constitution on a pretty substantial aspect (hint, it affects also fiscal policy and other international treaties). The change should be then subject to referendum where, exactly as happened with Renzi last week, everyone not supporting a M5S government (about 70% of the population) would vote against.Art0ir said:
Can anyone tell me, an outsider, why Italy shouldn't return to the Lira, devalue the life out of it (as was policy for decades) and return to the Pre Euro prosperity they enjoyed?
Vested interests (not interested in the country itself though). Giant socialist / communist superstates take a long time to kill off. Look at the old USSR.cayman-black said:
I do like M5S but would like to know if they was to win the vote who would be the president ? Battista,Dimaio ? TIA.
They will vote online among the registered users of their site to choose the next candidate. You just need to be a registered user since a certain date (I don't remember, I guess the end of 2012). It just works like a forum. The only difference is that you have to certify your identity submitting a scanned ID / passport.Generally the vote works like that in 2 phases: first you can write down any name you want. Than there is another poll in which you can choose just among 10 names that are the most 10 voted in phase 1. Probably Di Battista and Di Maio given their popularity will in be in the list.
I participated in the online poll for the 2013 president of the Repubblic candidate. It worked properly. Some of the ten most voted were public figures like a tv presenter not close to the movement but they were kept for the final poll. Just the one who said before they would have not been available for the role were taken off.
To sum up we'll see. I guess that at the beginning of 2017 they will held again the online voting. The other parties heavily criticized the online voting because of the relatively few registered people voting (200-300k) but it is more modern method and I like it.
Yeah, that really worked for the Labour party in the UK.REALIST123 said:
So Unicredit is cutting 14000 jobs and asking its 'investors' for €13,000,000,000.
Way to go the EU!!!
It was expected, the 14,000 jobs cut won't be firings but incentivated anticipated resigning and not replacing people going to pension but it is impressive anyway.Way to go the EU!!!
€13,000,000,000 doesn't look that much considering that Unicredit is the biggest bank in Italy and the total of non performing loans in Italy is over € 400,000,000,000
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