Home Secretary greenlights police to use new Taser 'within w

Home Secretary greenlights police to use new Taser 'within w

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Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
Greendubber said:
Ideally you aim.
Not easy when firing from the hip as she did.
If she's using the red dot she could have been aiming, no requirement to hold it out in front of you, rention can also come into play when close up so you dont want it out at arms length. Plus you need a bit of distance for probe spread for it to work effectively, arms are fairly long so hold it close in to your body if you're fairly close to the subject.

As I say in the bit you failed to quote, she could have had the safety off and fired by mistake but she may not have hence what I just pointed out above, neither of us know.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

157 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
As I say in the bit you failed to quote, she could have had the safety off and fired by mistake but she may not have hence what I just pointed out above, neither of us know.
I'd say either accident or panic but, as you say, neither of us knows.

techguyone

3,137 posts

141 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
LOL it gets better, so either panic or ND, either way it's not exactly confidence inspiring.

I did look at the video again, that is not an aimed shot. Considering it's an 'inaccurate weapon' that's uhhh shocking?

She fired it like a kid playing guns with her mates, snap shot from the hip. Joke. Just a joke.

Edited by techguyone on Saturday 21st January 11:25

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
Greendubber said:
As I say in the bit you failed to quote, she could have had the safety off and fired by mistake but she may not have hence what I just pointed out above, neither of us know.
I'd say either accident or panic but, as you say, neither of us knows.
Its entirely possible.

I've helped out on training courses teaching taser & personal safety training and there are people who just completely go to sh%t when under pressure, we've failed people who on the range are great but put an angry person in front of them and it all goes out of the window, the course is designed to weed those out so I'd like to think she wasnt just pulling the trigger in a panic. She'll have a portfolio held by force which will have her initial course notes and exam papers in along with notes and test papers from subsequent yearly refresher training and all those will be looked at during the investigation of this complaint.

If she was in a state of panic then its down to her to explain why and justify the level of force used. Its then down to the IPCC to decide if her response was proportionate or not.

Personally on the face of it I'd have just took hold of him, I'm reasonably happy that I have the ability to stop him leaving. If I was going to use taser half the world would know as I'd have been yelling at him to look at the red dot on his chest and to do exactly what I am telling him to do.

Easy as an outsider looking in with the benefit of hindsight though, no one would care if he was actually a wanted person even though the deployment was the same. 'Boo hoo burgler/rapist/murderer got tasered in the face, how sad nevermind'

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
techguyone said:
La Liga said:
carinaman said:
I just heard the audio on the end of BBC Radio news. She shouts 'Taser, taser, taser' after deploying it.

Why couldn't she have shouted that before deploying it?
Why would you tell someone when you've made the decision to deploy it?
For the same reason plod sometimes arc them, it lets the suspect know they are serious. Offers suspects an opportunity to reconsider, after all he wasn't exactly 'attacking' them
As I said, when you've made the decision to deploy it. Not using it as a show of strength or 'red-dotting' etc.





techguyone

3,137 posts

141 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
I'd agree but she's got the thing in her hand for most of the video...

Like the poster above, the sensible thing to do would have been to holler TASER, look at your CHEST, See the Red DOT STop or we'll shoot.

Not mince around for 6 minutes, then just randomly fire off an unaimed shot in someones face.

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
techguyone said:
I'd agree but she's got the thing in her hand for most of the video...

Like the poster above, the sensible thing to do would have been to holler TASER, look at your CHEST, See the Red DOT STop or we'll shoot.

Not mince around for 6 minutes, then just randomly fire off an unaimed shot in someones face.
Not sure if a factor but he did have a thick coat on with the hood up..............Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER

Mojooo

12,668 posts

179 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
I think everyone here supports Police using whatever they have to to defend themselves when they are in danger.

After the contact at the gate and the fact that he had keys in his hand he COULD have been a danger but the sensible thing to do would have been to just step back and threaten him with the taser first. That woman clearly panciked and went over the top. There was no need to act is such a rushed way.

techguyone

3,137 posts

141 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
To be fair la ligas & greendubbers posts have been informative.

I think though if you take the people on PH posting here as a cross section of 'the public' the majority do seem to feel the officers involved handled it badly.



pinchmeimdreamin

9,837 posts

217 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
And all the other poster's not agreeing with you.

Ian Geary

4,462 posts

191 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
I see the ph debate is following its usual pattern: people repeating their preconceived opinions at each other until one finally gives up.

After about 6 pages, people usually start making up scenarios that "might" have been in order to fit their position.

-he might have been "formally" (note the spelling) arrested, or he might not. We don't know. Anything said otherwise is just "what-if" bs

- he might have been told why he matched the description of a wanted person, he might not have been

- he might have initiated the use of force in the missing video: we just don't know

Police posting here can no doubt make inferences from their experience, but what they can't do is just dismiss the criticisms being aimed (ha ha) at what we see in this video, because until these are answered, there is legitimate doubt as to what legal justification they had to use force.

The simple answer is we have to wait for the bodycam footage to come out in full, and hopefully answer these points.

Other observation s

-simply giving your name sounds a "neat" solution, doesn't it? I suspect if this happened to you often, you would change your tune.

-I'm no black rights activist, but I can well imagine one pc saying to the other "they all look alike anyway"

- if the police need the power to demand your name and ID regardless of situation, then parliament need to give them it. Until then, they don't.

- To demand/ coerse/ intimidate someone into doing so is not, in my view, in the tradition s of our country's police

-reminder, it's not clear from that clip whether they do or don't have that power. They acted like they did, but I'm not going to speculate

-if someone is resisting, refusing to give details, they should be arrested in a transparent fashion, and force used if needed. Everyone then knows where they stand, including the police

Think that's it.

Oh yeah, I still think tasers are one of the most effective weapons the police have, though in this case, they had 4 ears and 2 mouths. They should have used them in that proprtion.


Ian

smileymikey

1,445 posts

225 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
I'm guessing she is filling in quite a lot of forms at the moment! I'm not a policeman but I can imagine that her sergeant felt a sense of disappointment that not only had she shot the wrong person with a Taser not only had she shot him in the face not only was it filmed by a bystander.......the person concerned was black in his sixties and advised the police on race relations.

I would imagine he asked a lot of "pointed" questions. I'm very glad I'm not her lol

Borroxs

20,911 posts

246 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
Two able bodied coppers can't handle one old man that's actually only trying to leave the scene, isn't swinging a baseball bat or anything. Even his dog didn't put up a fuss FFS.

Love the way she says "youve been tasered" in her wurzel accent.

Greendubber

13,129 posts

202 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.

Dont confuse taking everything into account, including operational experience, training and offering an alternative point and explaining a topic being discussed as 'the police can do no wrong EVER'

I guess the bigger picture wont fit into your narrow minded, frankly ridiculous posts on anything police related, will it?


anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
smileymikey said:
I'm guessing she is filling in quite a lot of forms at the moment! I'm not a policeman but I can imagine that her sergeant felt a sense of disappointment that not only had she shot the wrong person with a Taser not only had she shot him in the face not only was it filmed by a bystander.
She is a Sergeant so I'm not sure another one will matter to her.

She will have to do a statement, a use of force form and I expect some form of deployment Taser form.

She'll probably have to be interviewed by the IPCC if they're retaining it. If she's articulate enough and has a good enough understanding of the laws around using force can see clear routes to legal justification, regardless of anything else (presumably she'll take legal advice, too). When it comes down to it, that's the fundamentally most important thing.

She may not be able to justify it and her conduct may have reached he misconduct of criminal thresholds, but we'll have to see the outcome.

One thing I know for sure is how one-dimensionally people make judgements on situations they're viewing as third persons and lack the appreciation of how intrinsic the law is around using force. It's hard to overstate the importance of her beliefs, perceptions, feelings and judgements matter to the outcome.

Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.
He can't, because he can only argue against us by presenting a position we've never taken. It's a common fallacy called a 'Strawman' and is often used by those who aren't capable to debating the actual points raised.

Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.
He can't, because he can only argue against us by presenting a position we've never taken. It's a common fallacy called a 'Strawman' and is often used by those who aren't capable to debating the actual points raised.

Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.
He can't, because he can only argue against us by presenting a position we've never taken. It's a common fallacy called a 'Strawman' and is often used by those who aren't capable to debating the actual points raised.




Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
Ian Geary said:
...

- if the police need the power to demand your name and ID regardless of situation, then parliament need to give them it. Until then, they don't.

...
I'd much sooner have policing by conSent and people be courteous and accommodating than have to legislate for everything. Creating a combative approach by bleating about rights is going to end badly.

Edited by Murph7355 on Saturday 21st January 23:19

smileymikey

1,445 posts

225 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
La Liga said:
smileymikey said:
I'm guessing she is filling in quite a lot of forms at the moment! I'm not a policeman but I can imagine that her sergeant felt a sense of disappointment that not only had she shot the wrong person with a Taser not only had she shot him in the face not only was it filmed by a bystander.
She is a Sergeant so I'm not sure another one will matter to her.

She will have to do a statement, a use of force form and I expect some form of deployment Taser form.

She'll probably have to be interviewed by the IPCC if they're retaining it. If she's articulate enough and has a good enough understanding of the laws around using force can see clear routes to legal justification, regardless of anything else (presumably she'll take legal advice, too). When it comes down to it, that's the fundamentally most important thing.

She may not be able to justify it and her conduct may have reached he misconduct of criminal thresholds, but we'll have to see the outcome.

One thing I know for sure is how one-dimensionally people make judgements on situations they're viewing as third persons and lack the appreciation of how intrinsic the law is around using force. It's hard to overstate the importance of her beliefs, perceptions, feelings and judgements matter to the outcome.

Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.
He can't, because he can only argue against us by presenting a position we've never taken. It's a common fallacy called a 'Strawman' and is often used by those who aren't capable to debating the actual points raised.

Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.
He can't, because he can only argue against us by presenting a position we've never taken. It's a common fallacy called a 'Strawman' and is often used by those who aren't capable to debating the actual points raised.

Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.
He can't, because he can only argue against us by presenting a position we've never taken. It's a common fallacy called a 'Strawman' and is often used by those who aren't capable to debating the actual points raised.
It was fairly tongue in cheek.

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
Greendubber said:
SystemParanoia said:
alfie2244 said:
Very poorly handled by the officers in my opinion.
in everyone's opinion except la liga and greendubber.. in their eyes the police can do no wrong EVER
Prove where either of us have said the police can do no wrong EVER.

Dont confuse taking everything into account, including operational experience, training and offering an alternative point and explaining a topic being discussed as 'the police can do no wrong EVER'

I guess the bigger picture wont fit into your narrow minded, frankly ridiculous posts on anything police related, will it?
there isnt a bigger picture.
the man isnt a criminal
all charges brought against him have been dropped

this means the police were wrong

pinchmeimdreamin

9,837 posts

217 months

Saturday 21st January 2017
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
there isnt a bigger picture.
the man isnt a criminal
all charges brought against him have been dropped

this means the police were wrong
laugh it really is that simple.

The police should just wait for 100% proof before ever talking to anyone. idea