Globalisation

Author
Discussion

AW111

9,455 posts

132 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
avinalarf said:
Sidicks and RYH.....
I am not suggesting that there are not oppurtunities through education etc to advance one's life chances and certainly I have never stated that we should all be millionaires.
I think that most workers are content with an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.
That if they "play the game" they and their children will be able to afford to buy or at least rent a place to live.
That ,if prudent, they will receive a fair interest on their savings.
You see guys not all people aspire or have the wherewithals to be business men,entrepreneurs or have financial expertise.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have their own limited expectations fulfilled.
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of a higher basic wage in the UK?

Surely higher base pay is more efficient than paying the minimum, and then paying extra tax which is handed out to those same workers as benefits, via an extra layer of beaurocracy?

The cynic in me sees the current situation as being in the government's interest, as they are then the providers of benefits.

ATG

20,480 posts

271 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
Derek Smith said:
What, such as the south of Italy? I was there recently. They seem to be doing OK. I'm sure they'd appreciate your concern though.

On top of that, I think you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.
I'm doing no such thing.
Southern Europe's economic problems are not the result of membership of the Single Market, so what's left other than Eurozone membership given you are suggesting their's something Europeany at the root of their malaise?

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
ATG said:
sidicks said:
Derek Smith said:
What, such as the south of Italy? I was there recently. They seem to be doing OK. I'm sure they'd appreciate your concern though.

On top of that, I think you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.
I'm doing no such thing.
Southern Europe's economic problems are not the result of membership of the Single Market, so what's left other than Eurozone membership given you are suggesting their's something Europeany at the root of their malaise?
I don't believe that Southern Europe's problems are solely down to the Eurozone, but clearly that's the biggest part of it, so apologies to Derek, I probably should have said Eurozone in my previous post!
beer

Murph7355

37,648 posts

255 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
ATG said:
Southern Europe's economic problems are not the result of membership of the Single Market, so what's left other than Eurozone membership given you are suggesting their's something Europeany at the root of their malaise?
Do you think being in the Euro and also the pressure on jobs etc due to cheaper labour being available freely elsewhere within the EU are not contributing factors? Even heavily contributing?

With membership of the Single Market currently tied to these things for Italy there would appear to be a link (even though there is nothing other than politics enforcing it).

I acknowledge that cultural issues are likely to be a major issue too.

(Derek - on the face of it we're doing really well. And yet a lot of people believe we have major issues in some sectors of society... I doubt one can tell much from going on holiday).

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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RYH64E said:
avinalarf said:
In return for that I expect loyalty ,honesty and professionalism.
I pay good wages, even the warehouse staff are on a minimum of £8/hr and most on a lot more, they went home today leaving 10 pallets of goods outside in the yard, the warehouse manager and my good self had to bring them in. At 5pm they just went home, mid-job, all of them except the apprentice. Managing staff is like trying to herd cats. There will be words said tomorrow, they'll all look sheepish, be on their best behaviour for a few weeks then revert to type.
If you pay by the hour they'll work by the hour. Do you pay them extra if they stay late? Are you and the warehouse manager paid hourly or a fixed salary and how does it compare to that of the people who went home? What's being the lowest paid one, or one who had an appointment went on time and the rest followed? I might be paid more on am your taste of I work it out, but I bet the hours I do sometimes mean I end up on less effectively if you really do pay a lot more!

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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mcdjl said:
If you pay by the hour they'll work by the hour. Do you pay them extra if they stay late? Are you and the warehouse manager paid hourly or a fixed salary and how does it compare to that of the people who went home? What's being the lowest paid one, or one who had an appointment went on time and the rest followed? I might be paid more on am your taste of I work it out, but I bet the hours I do sometimes mean I end up on less effectively if you really do pay a lot more!
I pay time and a half for overtime.

People in here talk about paying staff a decent wage, I'm happy to do that and if they give something back then they will advance and earn more. If they do the least amount possible and leave at the earliest possible time why would they expect to earn more than the minimum wage an employer can pay?

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
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Derek Smith said:
One way of limiting the effects of globalisation on those at the bottom, and soon to be those in the middle, is to join a big group of trading nations. That way you can set competition requirements. If a company exporting to the group, let's call it an Economic Union, or EU for short, in udercutting by government subsidy then a tariff can be put on the products to ensure things are fair.

I don't think it will catch on though. Not here.
Why not just use tariffs at the nation state level? You're trying to re-invent the wheel.

Jockman

17,912 posts

159 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
avinalarf said:
Derek Smith said:
One way of limiting the effects of globalisation on those at the bottom, and soon to be those in the middle, is to join a big group of trading nations. That way you can set competition requirements. If a company exporting to the group, let's call it an Economic Union, or EU for short, in udercutting by government subsidy then a tariff can be put on the products to ensure things are fair.

I don't think it will catch on though. Not here.
I alluded to that in an early post.
Problem is what we were sold as a group of trading nations morphed into an idealistic political experiment.
Could be why people voted to join the EEC but to leave the EU?

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Jockman said:
avinalarf said:
Derek Smith said:
One way of limiting the effects of globalisation on those at the bottom, and soon to be those in the middle, is to join a big group of trading nations. That way you can set competition requirements. If a company exporting to the group, let's call it an Economic Union, or EU for short, in udercutting by government subsidy then a tariff can be put on the products to ensure things are fair.

I don't think it will catch on though. Not here.
I alluded to that in an early post.
Problem is what we were sold as a group of trading nations morphed into an idealistic political experiment.
Could be why people voted to join the EEC but to leave the EU?
Opinion polling was heavily against staying in the EEC prior to 1975's project fear getting started.

eccles

13,720 posts

221 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
mcdjl said:
If you pay by the hour they'll work by the hour. Do you pay them extra if they stay late? Are you and the warehouse manager paid hourly or a fixed salary and how does it compare to that of the people who went home? What's being the lowest paid one, or one who had an appointment went on time and the rest followed? I might be paid more on am your taste of I work it out, but I bet the hours I do sometimes mean I end up on less effectively if you really do pay a lot more!
I pay time and a half for overtime.

People in here talk about paying staff a decent wage, I'm happy to do that and if they give something back then they will advance and earn more. If they do the least amount possible and leave at the earliest possible time why would they expect to earn more than the minimum wage an employer can pay?
Just maybe, all your staff had other commitments after work. Just maybe they plan their life around their hours of work. No notice overtime just can't be done sometimes.

Jockman

17,912 posts

159 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
Opinion polling was heavily against staying in the EEC prior to 1975's project fear getting started.
And was the opposite in 2016. Damn polls !!

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Jockman said:
Esseesse said:
Opinion polling was heavily against staying in the EEC prior to 1975's project fear getting started.
And was the opposite in 2016. Damn polls !!
Not true, in the months/years leading up to the referendum campaign polling was pretty tight by historical standards.

Jockman

17,912 posts

159 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
Not true, in the months/years leading up to the referendum campaign polling was pretty tight by historical standards.
IIRC weren't all polls in June 2016 indicating a Remain win?

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Jockman said:
Esseesse said:
Not true, in the months/years leading up to the referendum campaign polling was pretty tight by historical standards.
IIRC weren't all polls in June 2016 indicating a Remain win?
I wrote "prior to 1975's project fear getting started" - i.e. in the time between joining the EEC and the campaign for the 1975 referendum starting. In 1975 the establishments one sided campaign worked fine for them. In 2016 leave probably would have lost (or the referendum would have never happened) without the internet.

The point of my post was that you were suggesting people voted to join the EEC because they liked it but we don't like the EU. This is not true.

Liokault

2,837 posts

213 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
Jockman said:
Esseesse said:
Opinion polling was heavily against staying in the EEC prior to 1975's project fear getting started.
And was the opposite in 2016. Damn polls !!
Not true, in the months/years leading up to the referendum campaign polling was pretty tight by historical standards.
Really?

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-brexit-watc...

Jockman

17,912 posts

159 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
The point of my post was that you were suggesting people voted to join the EEC because they liked it but we don't like the EU. This is not true.
Nope. I haven't a clue about the dynamics of the 1975 vote.

Derek described an economic trading bloc being a desirable scenario. My point is that would appear to be what we joined in 1975. Somewhere along the line it morphed into something different.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
eccles said:
Just maybe, all your staff had other commitments after work. Just maybe they plan their life around their hours of work. No notice overtime just can't be done sometimes.
Three out of four didn't have any commitments, one did. We've had a meeting to discuss and got to the bottom of the problem, which was one bolshy worker throwing his weight around and influencing the others.

The main point is, I'm crying out for people to take responsibility and make my life easier, the opportunities are there for staff to progress up the ladder and earn more money. If they're not prepared to do any more than the minimum possible why should I pay them any more than the minimum I can get away with? I already pay more for the role than neighbouring employers.

If someone wants to do the minimum that's fair enough, there's a place for those people, but if someone wants to earn more then they have to give more back.

eccles

13,720 posts

221 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
eccles said:
Just maybe, all your staff had other commitments after work. Just maybe they plan their life around their hours of work. No notice overtime just can't be done sometimes.
Three out of four didn't have any commitments, one did. We've had a meeting to discuss and got to the bottom of the problem, which was one bolshy worker throwing his weight around and influencing the others.

The main point is, I'm crying out for people to take responsibility and make my life easier, the opportunities are there for staff to progress up the ladder and earn more money. If they're not prepared to do any more than the minimum possible why should I pay them any more than the minimum I can get away with? I already pay more for the role than neighbouring employers.

If someone wants to do the minimum that's fair enough, there's a place for those people, but if someone wants to earn more then they have to give more back.
I'm perhaps a tad more realistic. Bloke sees a job advertised in a warehouse for a good wage, gets job, and signs contract. Contract states hours/terms and conditions. If it doesn't state in there you may be required to work outside your normal hours at no notice why should they work on?
Some employers garner loyalty and most employees would be loyal/flexible back, but if your boss is an idiot (not aimed at you!)why the hell would you inconvenience yourself?

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
eccles said:
I'm perhaps a tad more realistic. Bloke sees a job advertised in a warehouse for a good wage, gets job, and signs contract. Contract states hours/terms and conditions. If it doesn't state in there you may be required to work outside your normal hours at no notice why should they work on?
Some employers garner loyalty and most employees would be loyal/flexible back, but if your boss is an idiot (not aimed at you!)why the hell would you inconvenience yourself?
In most businesses, the people that progress are those that are prepared to go beyond what they are contracted to do...

Certainly as you become more senior, it becomes less about working your contracted hours and more about working until things are complete.

Piersman2

6,596 posts

198 months

Thursday 8th December 2016
quotequote all
But you don't just leave a job half finished out in the rain.

You either plan to have it completed and back under covers prior to finishing, or you stay and get things tucked away safely ready to re-start the following day.

You don't just down tools and walk without so much as a by your leave.