Globalisation

Author
Discussion

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
speedyman said:
You mean coffee bought for 100 euro a bag by Starbucks Nl. and cross charged at 10000 euro a bag to Starbucks uk who claim that as a legitmate expence.
You don't know what you are talking about. Maybe understand the rules before you complain about them!!

See 'transfer pricing rules' for more detail!
It doesn't matter what the rules are for the purposes of discussion - it an example where a company is using the rules to it's own advantage

Now that is totally legal - doesn't make it morally right......

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
It doesn't matter what the rules are for the purposes of discussion - it an example where a company is using the rules to it's own advantage

Now that is totally legal - doesn't make it morally right......
I'll ask you the same question?

Why is it morally wrong for a company to offset genuine expenses against it's liability to tax, just as every other business in the world does?

You appear to be suggesting that taxation should be charged on revenue rather than profit, do you not see a bit of a problem with that?

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 6th December 21:14

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
It doesn't matter what the rules are for the purposes of discussion - it an example where a company is using the rules to it's own advantage

Now that is totally legal - doesn't make it morally right......
I'll ask you the same question?

Why is it morally wrong for a company to offset genuine expenses against it's liability to tax, just as every other business in the world does?
It's not when in "Bold" however I'll ask you the same back - is it morally wrong for a company to offset non genuine expenses against it's liability for tax

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
It's not when in "Bold" however I'll ask you the same back - is it morally wrong for a company to offset non genuine expenses against it's liability for tax
I believe it is illegal too. Which of those Starbucks expenses i listed are not genuine?

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
It's not when in "Bold" however I'll ask you the same back - is it morally wrong for a company to offset non genuine expenses against it's liability for tax
I believe it is illegal too. Which of those Starbucks expenses i listed are not genuine?
That's good

So buying beans at one price in one location - doing nothing with them and then charging 20% more plus delivery to the "franchise"

This is assuming they are doing nothing with them

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
That's good

So buying beans at one price in one location - doing nothing with them and then charging 20% more plus delivery to the "franchise"

This is assuming they are doing nothing with them
The price charged for coffee has to be an arms length price.

Why is that unreasonable?

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

261 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
That's good

So buying beans at one price in one location - doing nothing with them and then charging 20% more plus delivery to the "franchise"

This is assuming they are doing nothing with them
The price charged for coffee has to be an arms length price.

Why is that unreasonable?
+1

If they sold to the franchise at cost price they would be accused of transferring profits from, and evading tax in, the buying location.

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
+1

If they sold to the franchise at cost price they would be accused of transferring profits from, and evading tax in, the buying location.
There are plenty of positives and negatives of 'globalisation' worthy of discussion. Likewise there are plenty of issues with 'tax avoidance'

However, let's address the real issues not pretend that perfectly reasonable activities by some companies are unreasonable 'tax avoidance'!!
beer

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
That's good

So buying beans at one price in one location - doing nothing with them and then charging 20% more plus delivery to the "franchise"

This is assuming they are doing nothing with them
The price charged for coffee has to be an arms length price.

Why is that unreasonable?
I'm familiar with that - companies I've worked for normally use 10% - I'm not sure there is an industry norm but ignoring that

Lets say they've paid the Market price for the beans in one location

The beans are also on the market for the same price in the other location

Stretching arms length principle if the franchise has to buy from the source that charges 20% more - same price as independents??

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
I'm familiar with that - companies I've worked for normally use 10% - I'm not sure there is an industry norm but ignoring that

Lets say they've paid the Market price for the beans in one location

The beans are also on the market for the same price in the other location

Stretching arms length principle if the franchise has to buy from the source that charges 20% more - same price as independents??
Where does 20% come from?

The requirements are for an arm's length price.

Murph7355

37,715 posts

256 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Darwin rules.

Our collective greed (yes, even you sat on your socialist in ivory tower) will be our undoing.

I don't believe there is a "solution".

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
I'm familiar with that - companies I've worked for normally use 10% - I'm not sure there is an industry norm but ignoring that

Lets say they've paid the Market price for the beans in one location

The beans are also on the market for the same price in the other location

Stretching arms length principle if the franchise has to buy from the source that charges 20% more - same price as independents??
Where does 20% come from?

The requirements are for an arm's length price.
OK then increases of 100% or even 1000% would be fine - it's arms length wink

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
OK then increases of 100% or even 1000% would be fine - it's arms length wink
In that case, I'm not sure you fully understand what 'arm's length' means in this context!

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
OK then increases of 100% or even 1000% would be fine - it's arms length wink
In that case, I'm not sure you fully understand what 'arm's length' means in this context!
Well I'm always keen to learn so if you have time would you explain?

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
Well I'm always keen to learn so if you have time would you explain?
Basically a fair market price, so not a large premium or a large discount.

B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
Well I'm always keen to learn so if you have time would you explain?
Basically a fair market price, so not a large premium or a large discount.
So all the companies I've worked at it's 10%

Yet the coffee example is 20% and it wasn't fair market price because the same goods were available on the open market at 20% less than the price that was being charged

Oh the 20% (god I actually clicked on a Guardian Link)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/shortcuts/201...


Edited by B'stard Child on Tuesday 6th December 22:58

speedyman

1,525 posts

234 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
B'stard Child said:
I'm familiar with that - companies I've worked for normally use 10% - I'm not sure there is an industry norm but ignoring that

Lets say they've paid the Market price for the beans in one location

The beans are also on the market for the same price in the other location

Stretching arms length principle if the franchise has to buy from the source that charges 20% more - same price as independents??
Where does 20% come from?

The requirements are for an arm's length price.
the 20% is in the Guardian article.


FredClogs

14,041 posts

161 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
Well I'm always keen to learn so if you have time would you explain?
It's just a price or deal that could be argued to be a normal value in a commercial sense, "argued" being the operative word - you'd need a team of contract lawyers, about a £squizzilion and 43 years to actually get anyone to make a decision though if I know owt about contract laywers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm's_length_princip...


B'stard Child

28,404 posts

246 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
B'stard Child said:
Well I'm always keen to learn so if you have time would you explain?
It's just a price or deal that could be argued to be a normal value in a commercial sense, "argued" being the operative word - you'd need a team of contract lawyers, about a £squizzilion and 43 years to actually get anyone to make a decision though if I know owt about contract laywers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm's_length_princip...
I get that but thanks for that

sidicks

25,218 posts

221 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
So all the companies I've worked at it's 10%

Yet the coffee example is 20% and it wasn't fair market price because the same goods were available on the open market at 20% less than the price that was being charged
Why would an 'arm's length' deal be done at cost price?

B'stard Child said:
Oh the 20% (god I actually clicked on a Guardian Link)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/shortcuts/201...
'the company says it pays higher prices because it only buys premium coffee beans."

So the 20% isn't 'like-for-like'?!