14 Years for keeping a sawn-off under your kids bed?

[caelite]

So not only did she have a sawn-off but:

'The shotgun - which experts said could quickly have been made viable'

She had a deactivated shotgun. 14 years for holding a deactivated shotgun. Man I fking hate our legal system.

[jmorgan]

garyhun said:

Del Boy used a sawn off for clay pigeon shooting.

Surely legit in that case?

Pump action.

[B'stard Child]

caelite said:

So not only did she have a sawn-off but:

'The shotgun - which experts said could quickly have been made viable'

She had a deactivated shotgun. 14 years for holding a deactivated shotgun. Man I fking hate our legal system.

18 mths for the weapon - twelve and half years for not revealing who asked her and paid her to store it at a rate of £65 a week....

[Mr Gearchange]

garyhun said:

Del Boy used a sawn off for clay pigeon shooting.

Surely legit in that case?

He'd borrowed it from Higgy Higgins though.

[popeyewhite]

Nanook said:

La Liga said:

f course you can shoot animals with one. It doesn't have to be effective.

Yes, the modification is generally used for those reasons but the context was theoretical circumstances in which would prevent the offence being made out.

Of course you can shoot an animal with one, but I'd bet my house that no-one has ever sawed the barrel off their shotgun for animal hunting/pest control purposes.

It's partly to make it more discrete, partly as it's easier to manoeuvre about in enclosed spaces like a house/pub/etc. It generally makes them less effective in every other way.

You'd be incredibly lucky to hit a rat ten feet in front of you with a sawn-off. Even if it stood stock still and showed you its broader side. Pellet spread is probably about a foot by then. Very much easier to hit a human though... .

[Ayahuasca]

popeyewhite said:

You'd be incredibly lucky to hit a rat ten feet in front of you with a sawn-off. Even if it stood stock still and showed you its broader side. Pellet spread is probably about a foot by then. Very much easier to hit a human though... .

10 inch spread, 10 feet away, one rat broadside? You'd have to be a blind Parkinson's sufferer to not hit it.

[Derek Smith]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I've been involved in a test of a sawn-off 12-bore and a full length one. The extra spread of the former was marginal over 10m. Surprised us all.

[caelite]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I'll say right from the get go I disagree with the UKs attitude to firearms, so I am probably a little bias on this one. But it seems time and time again people are 'made example of' in courts and are handed disproportionately large sentences for crimes where no offensive intent was exhibited. The UK legal system is against people protecting themselves and their property. In my eyes if they are going to be arming non-specialist police units (which they are, at a rather alarming rate) then the public should also have a right to arm and protect themselves. This is the case in many EU countries such as the Czech Republic, Austria, Estonia & Switzerland (Although with a st-ton of asterisks), the problem with reform and liberalisation of our gun laws is that people immediately cite the US as a large problem centre for gun violence without looking at other areas with high ownership. Violent crime is always going to happen, firearms just put thugs on their toes.

Although that subject is a debate for another topic. Ultimately I agree she should serve a sentence for her crime but 14 years is utterly atrocious. Especially considering she is a young mum.

B'stard Child said:

18 mths for the weapon - twelve and half years for not revealing who asked her and paid her to store it at a rate of £65 a week....

18months makes a lot more sense, actually the way you say it sounds like she dug herself a hole trying to get out of it.

Edited by caelite on Wednesday 7th December 02:06

[dudleybloke]

SteveScooby said:

14 years for having a gun under your bed.

6 for shooting someone;

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/sheffield-man-jailed...

It's a crazy world.

[AJL308]

bhstewie said:

I don't know if I'm thinking 14 years is too much or the amount of time you seem to do for far worse is too little but it did seem a long time assuming there's not something not being reported?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4006174/Mo...

I haven't clicked the link at the Mail website is so full of pointless clickbait that it gives my computer a wobbler.

14 years does seem a long time though. The maximum sentence for possession of a prohibited weapon is 10 so I doubt the conviction was for simple possession alone. Probably possession with intent to do something like murder or something.

[AJL308]

Soov535 said:

bhstewie said:

I don't know if I'm thinking 14 years is too much or the amount of time you seem to do for far worse is too little but it did seem a long time assuming there's not something not being reported?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4006174/Mo...

No one who has a sawn off has it for legitimate reasons.

Ever.

They do. Shortened shotguns are perfectly legal to possess on properly conditioned firearm certificate as long as they aren't pump-action or semi-auto in which case they are section 5. They are not uncommonly possessed for Western Shooting competitions.

Obviously, anyone who keeps one under their kids bed is unlikely to have a weekend name starting with "Wyatt" and a Stetson in the bedpost.

Interestingly though, although not illegal to possess, it is actually offence for to shorten a shotgun barrel to less than 24" unless you are a firearms dealer and are doing it only for the purpose of replacing part of the barrel in order that it returns to at least 24" in length. It's a bit of a pointless offence as it isn't illegal to actually make one with a 20" barrel you just need a firearm certificate for it rather than a shotgun certificate.

[AJL308]

bhstewie said:

La Liga said:

She wasn't just keeping it, the offence requires proof the possessor intends life to be endangered, although it is sufficient if the intent is that the firearms or ammunition should be used in a manner which endangers life as and when the occasion requires.

Pedant question but.. from your experience is there ever a circumstance where someone could keep a sawn off and not intend life to be endangered i.e. is there a circumstance in which the sentence could be less?

They have to prove your intent. You may have found it in the house when you moved in and clearly have no intention to use it. Still a possession offence.

[AJL308]

Ayahuasca said:

egor110 said:

bhstewie said:

Thanks, good explanation I'm not sure I'd say sinister but it's not something you'd have down as something grandad kept after the war, used to shoot rats etc. it's something that I personally can think of no rational reason for.

Anyway, in simple terms it's 14 years because she knew the person she was keeping it for would use it to do something bad when they collected it (vs. shooting rats)?

Surely the question would be why did you saw the barrel off to shoot rats ?

You can buy a shotrevolver for shooting vermin.

In the USA of course.

You can here too.

[AJL308]

caelite said:

So not only did she have a sawn-off but:

'The shotgun - which experts said could quickly have been made viable'

She had a deactivated shotgun. 14 years for holding a deactivated shotgun. Man I fking hate our legal system.

Did they say it was deactivated? It clearly wasn't if it could have been "quickly made viable".

They may just have meant that it was disassembled.

[The Mad Monk]

caelite said:

So not only did she have a sawn-off but:

'The shotgun - which experts said could quickly have been made viable'

She had a deactivated shotgun. 14 years for holding a deactivated shotgun. Man I fking hate our legal system.

Yes, the man,or woman, in the street finds it so difficult not to contravene the gun laws in this country, don't they?

[Sylvaforever]

And the same heinous crime is about to be thrust upon legitimate (note not toting drug dealers or their customers) airgun owners...

[AJL308]

Sylvaforever said:

And the same heinous crime is about to be thrust upon legitimate (note not toting drug dealers or their customers) airgun owners...

Only in the land of the Barbarians north of Northumberland. The penalties are no where near as drastic either.

That piece of legislation is even more ludicrous than the rest of UK firearms law. It is actually now much easier to get a shotgun certificate in Scotland than an Air Weapon Certificate. You need not show any good reason for the former but you do for the latter.

[popeyewhite]

Ayahuasca said:

10 inch spread, 10 feet away, one rat broadside? You'd have to be a blind Parkinson's sufferer to not hit it.

If it was a bloody huge rat you'd have a better chance as well. The point I was trying to make is no one goes ratting with a sawn-off, for obvious reasons.

[AJL308]

popeyewhite said:

Ayahuasca said:

10 inch spread, 10 feet away, one rat broadside? You'd have to be a blind Parkinson's sufferer to not hit it.

If it was a bloody huge rat you'd have a better chance as well. The point I was trying to make is no one goes ratting with a sawn-off, for obvious reasons.

And, as the point has repeatedly been made to you - yes they do! Perhaps not actually sawn-off ones but ones made with short barrels like sawn-off's. They are used for ratting, and the like, in and around buildings. There is even a statutory provision in the 1997 Amendment Act to possess 9mm and .410 shot pistols which are used for that very purpose.

Believe me - a 12 gauge shot gun sawn to the point of having barrels extending not much past the fore-end is still pretty devastating and will certainly kill rats at reasonable ranges.

[popeyewhite]

AJL308 said:

And, as the point has repeatedly been made to you - yes they do! Perhaps not actually sawn-off ones

No, not sawn-offs, thank you.

AJL308 said:

but ones made with short barrels like sawn-off's. They are used for ratting, and the like, in and around buildings. There is even a statutory provision in the 1997 Amendment Act to possess 9mm and .410 shot pistols which are used for that very purpose.

.410 are dodgy for rats beyond about 15 ft - again the spread is too great. Ratters I know use them for humane dispatch mostly. I'll concede the 9mm's spread is a bit neater - probably up to about 20ft you're likely to hit something.

AJL308 said:

Believe me - a 12 gauge shot gun sawn to the point of having barrels extending not much past the fore-end is still pretty devastating and will certainly kill rats at reasonable ranges.

Yes, if you hit one of them.