ITV This Morning "Ban the burka?" poll

[Alpinestars]

Terminator X said:

FFS how many people do you see wearing "a hoodie, or a hat, or a ski mask, or a halloween mask" every time they leave the house? It's a security issue plain and simple, no one should wander around with their face covered and certainly not in the Western World. As far as at an airport is concerned then you'd not get past security with any of those items covering your face.

TX.

If it is purely a security issue, is your stand pre-emptive or can you point to significant security failures as a result of wearing a burka and can you cf to other forms of obscuring identity when committing crime.

Ie, are you scared of the bogeyman or is this a real issue?

Edited by Alpinestars on Thursday 8th December 13:24

[Countdown]

J4CKO said:

I think wearing a covering over your face as a matter of course is contrary to being human, it really serves no purpose and the intended one of modesty seems to be mainly bks as plenty of other Muslims manage modesty without resorting to that ridiculous get up as do women of other religions and the non religous.

I have spoken to my Muslim friends and they arent for it either, one said it comes fromt he hard line Saudi version of Islam, where he lived for years and has vowed to never go back, vile place he says.

However, banning it, no, its like telling a stroppy teenager they cant do something, they will just do it all the more to make a point.

Lots of white Brits pretend to have a deep revulsion for it but it is actually a combination of Islam being heard about so much, the sheer numbers of Muslims and the areas that are no go now, there is that lazy racism and looking for someone to blame, but there are issues with the Muslim community and how they do things, that cannot be ignored. However using the Burka as a thinkly veiled way to have a go is a bit lame, its like poor Lee Rigby, had he been killed in the same manner in Hellmand he would never have been heard of but now, sadly he has become the poster boy for "Brtain First".

The Daily Mail headlines regarding Islam all are basically "look what these bds are up to now", they make their own headlines "Infant School bans Christmas so as not to offend Muslims", the Muslims arent remotely bothered but a do gooder has turned the nativity into a "winter play" but the thickos want it to be Muslims banning all our good old fashioned christian winter fun, despite none of them ever going to church, but no it usually isnt the Muslims who just generally want to get on with life, make money and advance, there are the odd ones wanting a ruck, but they are usually try hard converts or young chaps with too much testosterone that arent allowed near women.


I know people who post every news article on Facebook where a Muslim has done something wrong, there are six million Muslims in the UK, some will of course commit crime, smae person said that 90 percfent of the jail population is Muslim, which is utter bks of course.

There seems to be a class of white Brit that is looking for reasons to hate Muslims, my thinking is that there are issues, but there are in every section of society and the stupid "Deport them all" stuff I have actually seen on FB is not going to happen despite these hard of thinking types preference.


I am sure it goes both ways, but I dont see the same folk moaning about other religions and nationaliies, Hindus, Sikhs, Poles, Chinese etc ?

Needs to be a common sense approach,

Well said.

[CrutyRammers]

Shakermaker said:

Yes, they can, they might take them off to a side room that is used for privacy, and asking them to remove their veil is allowed in exactly the same way that they can ask you or I to come with them to remove your clothes as well. Not to check identity, but to check for any prohibited items.

If that person refuses to remove their veil then they will likely be denied access to the airport and not be permitted to fly - it is all covered in the same legislation that covers UK airport security.

You would not get a Male staff member taking a female wearing a veil to make this check

And that is where I would draw the line. I would not ban the burqua, despite my personal dislike of it and what it represents.
However I would also not pander to it. A private room with female-only staff? No, security check, take it off and be dealt with like everyone else has to be.

I wouldn't ban, but I wouldn't give any special treatment. That's what is divisive and what has lead us to talks of bans.

[AJL308]

CrutyRammers said:

Shakermaker said:

Yes, they can, they might take them off to a side room that is used for privacy, and asking them to remove their veil is allowed in exactly the same way that they can ask you or I to come with them to remove your clothes as well. Not to check identity, but to check for any prohibited items.

If that person refuses to remove their veil then they will likely be denied access to the airport and not be permitted to fly - it is all covered in the same legislation that covers UK airport security.

You would not get a Male staff member taking a female wearing a veil to make this check

And that is where I would draw the line. I would not ban the burqua, despite my personal dislike of it and what it represents.
However I would also not pander to it. A private room with female-only staff? No, security check, take it off and be dealt with like everyone else has to be.

I wouldn't ban, but I wouldn't give any special treatment. That's what is divisive and what has lead us to talks of bans.

I tend to agree with everything but your last sentence. It isn't just the talk of bans bu the very covering of the face its self.

It is divisive. Covering your face in public interactions with other people is the very definition of divisive. It is contrary to millennia of Human social evolution and millions of years of physical evolution.

It is not in any way comparable to simple differences is dress. Covering the face is not a form of dress - it is a hiding of your expression, your intent and feelings towards others. You cannot expect to be treated equally if you permanently cover your face.

[irocfan]

Shakermaker said:

Couldn't they just have easily worn a hoodie, or a hat, or a ski mask, or a halloween mask? And if they had, would you be calling for the banning of hats, ski masks, halloween masks or hoodies?

Well wasn't there just some sort of fuss made about people in clown garb and calls for banning?

[Uncle John]

From the inside so to speak, what do you think these women are thinking looking out from one of these?

Genuine question.

As they go about their lives do you think they feel protected from the outside western world? Feel a bit stupid? Look down at others that do not conform? Feel a little too obvious?

[Shakermaker]

CrutyRammers said:

And that is where I would draw the line. I would not ban the burqua, despite my personal dislike of it and what it represents.
However I would also not pander to it. A private room with female-only staff? No, security check, take it off and be dealt with like everyone else has to be.

I wouldn't ban, but I wouldn't give any special treatment. That's what is divisive and what has lead us to talks of bans.

It puts those who wear it at a significant disadvantage though, I would argue. Rather than be able to scoot through security with the confident air of a well travelled PH Company director (or someone like me, who goes through 6+ times a day at work) they have to go off, and not take advantage of the simple process. They are being dealt with the same as everyone else. But they don't HAVE to take it off for security reasons in exactly the same way that you don't HAVE to take your trousers off for security reasons - the scanners check for anything you can't have on you. It is ONLY when they are marked out as needing an extra search because they set off the metal detector or something comes up on the scanner.

It isn't a special room just for Muslim women wearing a veil, it is a private room that is already in place for anyone to be taken to when they need to remove clothing, so its already part of the process.

[mybrainhurts]

Poll has gone from 84% in favour, to 56% against.

Looks like Gorgeous George Galloway's been calling out the faithful today...

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 8th December 18:27

[anonymous-user]

AJL308 said:

Roman Rhodes said:

alock said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Who here has been disadvantaged when having a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa? How would the conversation have been different if they were not wearing a burqa?

There have been lots of studies on the advantages of face-to-face communications. Most are due to the disadvantages of using telephones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face-to-face_interac...

I imagine it's easy to get funding for studying how a telephone call is less efficient than a face-to-face meeting. Getting funding for something that might upset the religion of peace is harder.

As you say, studies regarding advantages of face to face communication rather than using phone/emil etc. I was asking for experiences of being disadvantaged personally. There are some strong opinions here so I wondered if they were based on experience rather than theory.

We are all personally disadvantaged because it is a huge barrier to integration. If you cannot communicate with someone then they are segregated from other people. Lots of segregation is not a good idea, so we are constantly told.

I can't have a conversation on an equal social footing with a person with their face covered so I am at a disadvantage. Because of that disadvantage I won't enter into a conversation with someone who's face is covered. I don't care whether that is with a balaclava, a mask or a Burka.

I, along with many people, don't even really like having a conversation with someone wearing sunglasses as I think that keeping them on unless very necessary is rude, quite frankly. It is dismissive of the other person and I think people often do it as some sort of personal security barrier. Notice when watching the F1 coverage and they speak to David Coulthard - he always removes his sunglasses before getting into a conversation.

Woman in a burqa asks you the way to the post office and you just blank them? Get introduced by a colleague to his wife and you won't say hello or speak to her because she's wearing a burqa? And THEY have the integration problem?

You haven't given any example of how YOU been disadvantaged, just a generalised opinion. I get that you don't LIKE face coverings - but it just sounds like your personal preferences rather than a reason to introduce a law to ban them. The bit about sunglasses sounds odd.

Personally, I don't want to be banned from wearing a balaclava or wrapping my scarf around my face as it keeps me warm when out with the dogs! I'll also keep my sunglasses on when it is sunny if that's OK?

[Shakermaker]

Uncle John said:

From the inside so to speak, what do you think these women are thinking looking out from one of these?

Genuine question.

As they go about their lives do you think they feel protected from the outside western world? Feel a bit stupid? Look down at others that do not conform? Feel a little too obvious?

"I hope little Mohammed has done all his schoolwork, I must remember to pick up some more turmeric when I go to the shops, I don't know how I'm going to put up with my mother in law coming to stay"

I suspect they think pretty much the same things in their head as the rest of us.

[del mar]

tommunster10 said:

C.A.R. said:

I know I'll get shot down for pointing this out but one of the 7/7 bombers did evade CCTV by wearing a Burka. It was only when footage was reviewed that he was picked up.

Just to give the whole 'mistrust' thing a bit of traction. It is justified.

People always think they are really clever when they point that out, but ban burkas and someone does a crime and to try to evade they dress as a woman, wig, sunglasses, dress.... what do we do then? Ban dress's, ban transvestites? Ban women?

Rob a bank cover face with tights...ban tights?

This misses the point;

Society has deemed covering your face with tights as unacceptable

Society has deemed walking around with a mask on as unacceptable

Walk into a bank etc like this and you would be asked to leave / uncover your face.

For some reason walking around with your face covered with a black sheet is deemed acceptable.

You would be in a world of trouble if you asked somebody to remove their face covering.

[del mar]

Why do people keep saying "in a free society" and implying you can do / wear what you want ?

Society is held together by a set of rules / guidelines / values etc, we are not living in a 60's hippy commune.

If we allow one group to live to a different set of rules / guidelines / values you start to get social problems.

Like segregation in some towns....

[WinstonWolf]

Roman Rhodes said:

AJL308 said:

Roman Rhodes said:

alock said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Who here has been disadvantaged when having a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa? How would the conversation have been different if they were not wearing a burqa?

There have been lots of studies on the advantages of face-to-face communications. Most are due to the disadvantages of using telephones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face-to-face_interac...

I imagine it's easy to get funding for studying how a telephone call is less efficient than a face-to-face meeting. Getting funding for something that might upset the religion of peace is harder.

As you say, studies regarding advantages of face to face communication rather than using phone/emil etc. I was asking for experiences of being disadvantaged personally. There are some strong opinions here so I wondered if they were based on experience rather than theory.

We are all personally disadvantaged because it is a huge barrier to integration. If you cannot communicate with someone then they are segregated from other people. Lots of segregation is not a good idea, so we are constantly told.

I can't have a conversation on an equal social footing with a person with their face covered so I am at a disadvantage. Because of that disadvantage I won't enter into a conversation with someone who's face is covered. I don't care whether that is with a balaclava, a mask or a Burka.

I, along with many people, don't even really like having a conversation with someone wearing sunglasses as I think that keeping them on unless very necessary is rude, quite frankly. It is dismissive of the other person and I think people often do it as some sort of personal security barrier. Notice when watching the F1 coverage and they speak to David Coulthard - he always removes his sunglasses before getting into a conversation.

Woman in a burqa asks you the way to the post office and you just blank them? Get introduced by a colleague to his wife and you won't say hello or speak to her because she's wearing a burqa? And THEY have the integration problem?

You haven't given any example of how YOU been disadvantaged, just a generalised opinion. I get that you don't LIKE face coverings - but it just sounds like your personal preferences rather than a reason to introduce a law to ban them. The bit about sunglasses sounds odd.

Personally, I don't want to be banned from wearing a balaclava or wrapping my scarf around my face as it keeps me warm when out with the dogs! I'll also keep my sunglasses on when it is sunny if that's OK?

Do you wear them when it's dark?

Hiding your face is rude and the British can't abide bad manners. If you choose to hide your face from society it's no one's fault but your own if you're shunned...

[J4CKO]

Everyone should be able to wear whatever they want, however, where security is tight then any head covering should be removed, if you dont do that, banks, airports and large gatherings, then sorry, you dont get in.

You cant just pick on a garment and say "You cant wear that", then we will get variations to try and get round the rules and all manner of nonsense, some poor sod with facial disfigurement will be told to remove something that covers some terrible injury, wear a Burka or a Balaclava by all means, but be prepared to remove it in situations where security is paramount.

Trouble is, then you need a women on hand as security, preferably Muslim ones, but not those type, oh that one cant speak that language, will turn into a clusterfk but cant have a bloke looking at a womans face, he wont be able to control himself and will become a rampant beast.

Religious observance, collective OCD since religion started, cant do this, cant do that, blah blah blah, all bks of course but nobody must be offended, or realistically allow one "team" to score points over the other.

I saw some stuff on the BBC about they are developing a Peppa Pig alternative for Muslims, of course watching a cartoon approximation of a Pig is Haraam, oh really, I thought it was all about not eating it as back in olden times eating pig was a recipe for bad guts/certain death, a bit of common sense before freezers, curing and all that stuff, nope got to make it all a bit freaky, the mere mention of a pig is enough to cause angst, get over it, pigs exist, you dont have to eat it and nobody is going to put one in your bedroom, like burning flags, poppies or Korans a bit of Bacon thrown by some ignorant cretin should just be binned and ignored, perhaps focus on the actual problems rather than inventing then and looking for an excuse to react !

And that is what it is, someone insults soldiers, well boo-fking-hoo, the actual soldiers get fking shot at and stuff, their honour is intact if some uppity Iman says they are all s, if a Koran gets burnt, they are doing it to wind you up, reacting is exactly what they want, you arent going to miss one copy, nothing bad happens unless you react that is, "But it is holy", oh fking right, that makes all the difference, its holy, what does that mean exactly ? you feel it is quite important, that is all it means, print another one, get one from Amazon, not really worth a battle and keeping quiet will avoid further copies being burnt when the knobs realise you arent reacting.

Am sick of the crap sniping, "But he called his teddy Mohammed", "But she is wearing a Burka", "But someone like him killed Lee Rigby and he wont denounce it or 9/11"

It isnt even sniping at each other, I am sure that a lot of this is Britain First knobheads trying to incense fellow knobheads to keep the pot boiling

[Shakermaker]

del mar said:

Why do people keep saying "in a free society" and implying you can do / wear what you want ?

Society is held together by a set of rules / guidelines / values etc, we are not living in a 60's hippy commune.

If we allow one group to live to a different set of rules / guidelines / values you start to get social problems.

Like segregation in some towns....

Nobody is saying you can't go and wear a burka if you want to. That is the point. You choose not to wear one, and that's fine, some people choose to wear them, and that is also fine.

You are exactly as free to choose to do something as that person, you make one choice, they make the other.

[anonymous-user]

WinstonWolf said:

Roman Rhodes said:

AJL308 said:

Roman Rhodes said:

alock said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Who here has been disadvantaged when having a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa? How would the conversation have been different if they were not wearing a burqa?

There have been lots of studies on the advantages of face-to-face communications. Most are due to the disadvantages of using telephones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face-to-face_interac...

I imagine it's easy to get funding for studying how a telephone call is less efficient than a face-to-face meeting. Getting funding for something that might upset the religion of peace is harder.

As you say, studies regarding advantages of face to face communication rather than using phone/emil etc. I was asking for experiences of being disadvantaged personally. There are some strong opinions here so I wondered if they were based on experience rather than theory.

We are all personally disadvantaged because it is a huge barrier to integration. If you cannot communicate with someone then they are segregated from other people. Lots of segregation is not a good idea, so we are constantly told.

I can't have a conversation on an equal social footing with a person with their face covered so I am at a disadvantage. Because of that disadvantage I won't enter into a conversation with someone who's face is covered. I don't care whether that is with a balaclava, a mask or a Burka.

I, along with many people, don't even really like having a conversation with someone wearing sunglasses as I think that keeping them on unless very necessary is rude, quite frankly. It is dismissive of the other person and I think people often do it as some sort of personal security barrier. Notice when watching the F1 coverage and they speak to David Coulthard - he always removes his sunglasses before getting into a conversation.

Woman in a burqa asks you the way to the post office and you just blank them? Get introduced by a colleague to his wife and you won't say hello or speak to her because she's wearing a burqa? And THEY have the integration problem?

You haven't given any example of how YOU been disadvantaged, just a generalised opinion. I get that you don't LIKE face coverings - but it just sounds like your personal preferences rather than a reason to introduce a law to ban them. The bit about sunglasses sounds odd.

Personally, I don't want to be banned from wearing a balaclava or wrapping my scarf around my face as it keeps me warm when out with the dogs! I'll also keep my sunglasses on when it is sunny if that's OK?

Do you wear them when it's dark?

Hiding your face is rude and the British can't abide bad manners. If you choose to hide your face from society it's no one's fault but your own if you're shunned...

If it is cold I'll wear my scarf/balaclava when it is dark. The sunglasses - no, that really wouldn't make a lot of sense. Reason for asking?

"Hiding your face is rude and the British can't abide bad manners." In your opinion. Hiding your face isn't rude. In my opinion.

Are there any other bad manners you want to introduce a law to ban?

[rev-erend]

All ugly women should wear burkas.

[WinstonWolf]

Roman Rhodes said:

WinstonWolf said:

Roman Rhodes said:

AJL308 said:

Roman Rhodes said:

alock said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Who here has been disadvantaged when having a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa? How would the conversation have been different if they were not wearing a burqa?

There have been lots of studies on the advantages of face-to-face communications. Most are due to the disadvantages of using telephones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face-to-face_interac...

I imagine it's easy to get funding for studying how a telephone call is less efficient than a face-to-face meeting. Getting funding for something that might upset the religion of peace is harder.

As you say, studies regarding advantages of face to face communication rather than using phone/emil etc. I was asking for experiences of being disadvantaged personally. There are some strong opinions here so I wondered if they were based on experience rather than theory.

We are all personally disadvantaged because it is a huge barrier to integration. If you cannot communicate with someone then they are segregated from other people. Lots of segregation is not a good idea, so we are constantly told.

I can't have a conversation on an equal social footing with a person with their face covered so I am at a disadvantage. Because of that disadvantage I won't enter into a conversation with someone who's face is covered. I don't care whether that is with a balaclava, a mask or a Burka.

I, along with many people, don't even really like having a conversation with someone wearing sunglasses as I think that keeping them on unless very necessary is rude, quite frankly. It is dismissive of the other person and I think people often do it as some sort of personal security barrier. Notice when watching the F1 coverage and they speak to David Coulthard - he always removes his sunglasses before getting into a conversation.

Woman in a burqa asks you the way to the post office and you just blank them? Get introduced by a colleague to his wife and you won't say hello or speak to her because she's wearing a burqa? And THEY have the integration problem?

You haven't given any example of how YOU been disadvantaged, just a generalised opinion. I get that you don't LIKE face coverings - but it just sounds like your personal preferences rather than a reason to introduce a law to ban them. The bit about sunglasses sounds odd.

Personally, I don't want to be banned from wearing a balaclava or wrapping my scarf around my face as it keeps me warm when out with the dogs! I'll also keep my sunglasses on when it is sunny if that's OK?

Do you wear them when it's dark?

Hiding your face is rude and the British can't abide bad manners. If you choose to hide your face from society it's no one's fault but your own if you're shunned...

If it is cold I'll wear my scarf/balaclava when it is dark. The sunglasses - no, that really wouldn't make a lot of sense. Reason for asking?

"Hiding your face is rude and the British can't abide bad manners." In your opinion. Hiding your face isn't rude. In my opinion.

Are there any other bad manners you want to introduce a law to ban?

Then you have poor manners.

[del mar]

Shakermaker said:

del mar said:

Why do people keep saying "in a free society" and implying you can do / wear what you want ?

Society is held together by a set of rules / guidelines / values etc, we are not living in a 60's hippy commune.

If we allow one group to live to a different set of rules / guidelines / values you start to get social problems.

Like segregation in some towns....

Nobody is saying you can't go and wear a burka if you want to. That is the point. You choose not to wear one, and that's fine, some people choose to wear them, and that is also fine.

You are exactly as free to choose to do something as that person, you make one choice, they make the other.

I know that people are saying you can, but there are norms and values in society that control what we do, and how we interact with each other.

I believe covering yourself with a black sheet goes against those norms and values and should be banned.

[anonymous-user]

J4CKO said:

Everyone should be able to wear whatever they want, however, where security is tight then any head covering should be removed, if you dont do that, banks, airports and large gatherings, then sorry, you dont get in.

You cant just pick on a garment and say "You cant wear that", then we will get variations to try and get round the rules and all manner of nonsense, some poor sod with facial disfigurement will be told to remove something that covers some terrible injury, wear a Burka or a Balaclava by all means, but be prepared to remove it in situations where security is paramount.

Trouble is, then you need a women on hand as security, preferably Muslim ones, but not those type, oh that one cant speak that language, will turn into a clusterfk but cant have a bloke looking at a womans face, he wont be able to control himself and will become a rampant beast.

Religious observance, collective OCD since religion started, cant do this, cant do that, blah blah blah, all bks of course but nobody must be offended, or realistically allow one "team" to score points over the other.

I saw some stuff on the BBC about they are developing a Peppa Pig alternative for Muslims, of course watching a cartoon approximation of a Pig is Haraam, oh really, I thought it was all about not eating it as back in olden times eating pig was a recipe for bad guts/certain death, a bit of common sense before freezers, curing and all that stuff, nope got to make it all a bit freaky, the mere mention of a pig is enough to cause angst, get over it, pigs exist, you dont have to eat it and nobody is going to put one in your bedroom, like burning flags, poppies or Korans a bit of Bacon thrown by some ignorant cretin should just be binned and ignored, perhaps focus on the actual problems rather than inventing then and looking for an excuse to react !

And that is what it is, someone insults soldiers, well boo-fking-hoo, the actual soldiers get fking shot at and stuff, their honour is intact if some uppity Iman says they are all s, if a Koran gets burnt, they are doing it to wind you up, reacting is exactly what they want, you arent going to miss one copy, nothing bad happens unless you react that is, "But it is holy", oh fking right, that makes all the difference, its holy, what does that mean exactly ? you feel it is quite important, that is all it means, print another one, get one from Amazon, not really worth a battle and keeping quiet will avoid further copies being burnt when the knobs realise you arent reacting.

Am sick of the crap sniping, "But he called his teddy Mohammed", "But she is wearing a Burka", "But someone like him killed Lee Rigby and he wont denounce it or 9/11"

It isnt even sniping at each other, I am sure that a lot of this is Britain First knobheads trying to incense fellow knobheads to keep the pot boiling

Good points. Re security - usually plenty of female staff as I don't think they allow blokes to pat down women. Not sure whether I've ever been patted down by a woman (other than wife seeking wallet)! Am I the victim of discrimination? Confused.