ITV This Morning "Ban the burka?" poll

[Kermit power]

J4CKO said:

Everyone should be able to wear whatever they want, however, where security is tight then any head covering should be removed, if you dont do that, banks, airports and large gatherings, then sorry, you dont get in.

You cant just pick on a garment and say "You cant wear that", then we will get variations to try and get round the rules and all manner of nonsense, some poor sod with facial disfigurement will be told to remove something that covers some terrible injury, wear a Burka or a Balaclava by all means, but be prepared to remove it in situations where security is paramount.

Trouble is, then you need a women on hand as security, preferably Muslim ones, but not those type, oh that one cant speak that language, will turn into a clusterfk but cant have a bloke looking at a womans face, he wont be able to control himself and will become a rampant beast.

Religious observance, collective OCD since religion started, cant do this, cant do that, blah blah blah, all bks of course but nobody must be offended, or realistically allow one "team" to score points over the other.

I saw some stuff on the BBC about they are developing a Peppa Pig alternative for Muslims, of course watching a cartoon approximation of a Pig is Haraam, oh really, I thought it was all about not eating it as back in olden times eating pig was a recipe for bad guts/certain death, a bit of common sense before freezers, curing and all that stuff, nope got to make it all a bit freaky, the mere mention of a pig is enough to cause angst, get over it, pigs exist, you dont have to eat it and nobody is going to put one in your bedroom, like burning flags, poppies or Korans a bit of Bacon thrown by some ignorant cretin should just be binned and ignored, perhaps focus on the actual problems rather than inventing then and looking for an excuse to react !

And that is what it is, someone insults soldiers, well boo-fking-hoo, the actual soldiers get fking shot at and stuff, their honour is intact if some uppity Iman says they are all s, if a Koran gets burnt, they are doing it to wind you up, reacting is exactly what they want, you arent going to miss one copy, nothing bad happens unless you react that is, "But it is holy", oh fking right, that makes all the difference, its holy, what does that mean exactly ? you feel it is quite important, that is all it means, print another one, get one from Amazon, not really worth a battle and keeping quiet will avoid further copies being burnt when the knobs realise you arent reacting.

Am sick of the crap sniping, "But he called his teddy Mohammed", "But she is wearing a Burka", "But someone like him killed Lee Rigby and he wont denounce it or 9/11"

It isnt even sniping at each other, I am sure that a lot of this is Britain First knobheads trying to incense fellow knobheads to keep the pot boiling

Absolutely spot on.

Saying you're protecting freedom by, er, restricting someone's freedom to do what they want when it doesn't harm anyone else is perverse, to say the least.

[Username888]

Shakermaker said:

tommunster10 said:

I was responding to the post saying that the 7/7 bombers used burkas to evade capture via CCTV, i said nothing about going through an airport?

Couldn't they just have easily worn a hoodie, or a hat, or a ski mask, or a halloween mask? And if they had, would you be calling for the banning of hats, ski masks, halloween masks or hoodies?

7/7 happened in July. The clue is very cleverly, in the name. Burka is less suspicious than dressing for the winter, in the summer.

[chrispmartha]

del mar said:

Why do people keep saying "in a free society" and implying you can do / wear what you want ?

Society is held together by a set of rules / guidelines / values etc, we are not living in a 60's hippy commune.

If we allow one group to live to a different set of rules / guidelines / values you start to get social problems.

Like segregation in some towns....

Erm, different set of rules? As far as I know theres nothing stopping you or I wearing a burka.

[Funkycoldribena]

rev-erend said:

All ugly women should wear burkas.

And all good looking ones should wear bikinis.(compulsory).

[heyhomes]

J4CKO said:

Everyone should be able to wear whatever they want

No they shouldn't. By that thinking it should be totally ok for a middle aged man to walk down the street chatting to kids in nothing but stockings, suspenders and a micro thong? Or the man who was arrested for his t-shirt mocking Hillsborough victims should have been allowed to wear it with pride because it's 'what he wants'?

These are quiet extreme examples, but to many the sight of a burkha is just as offensive because of what it really represents in the societies from which it originated: the suppression and subjugation of women.

[AJL308]

Roman Rhodes said:

AJL308 said:

Roman Rhodes said:

alock said:

Roman Rhodes said:

Who here has been disadvantaged when having a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa? How would the conversation have been different if they were not wearing a burqa?

There have been lots of studies on the advantages of face-to-face communications. Most are due to the disadvantages of using telephones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face-to-face_interac...

I imagine it's easy to get funding for studying how a telephone call is less efficient than a face-to-face meeting. Getting funding for something that might upset the religion of peace is harder.

As you say, studies regarding advantages of face to face communication rather than using phone/emil etc. I was asking for experiences of being disadvantaged personally. There are some strong opinions here so I wondered if they were based on experience rather than theory.

We are all personally disadvantaged because it is a huge barrier to integration. If you cannot communicate with someone then they are segregated from other people. Lots of segregation is not a good idea, so we are constantly told.

I can't have a conversation on an equal social footing with a person with their face covered so I am at a disadvantage. Because of that disadvantage I won't enter into a conversation with someone who's face is covered. I don't care whether that is with a balaclava, a mask or a Burka.

I, along with many people, don't even really like having a conversation with someone wearing sunglasses as I think that keeping them on unless very necessary is rude, quite frankly. It is dismissive of the other person and I think people often do it as some sort of personal security barrier. Notice when watching the F1 coverage and they speak to David Coulthard - he always removes his sunglasses before getting into a conversation.

Woman in a burqa asks you the way to the post office and you just blank them? Get introduced by a colleague to his wife and you won't say hello or speak to her because she's wearing a burqa? And THEY have the integration problem?

You haven't given any example of how YOU been disadvantaged, just a generalised opinion. I get that you don't LIKE face coverings - but it just sounds like your personal preferences rather than a reason to introduce a law to ban them. The bit about sunglasses sounds odd.

Personally, I don't want to be banned from wearing a balaclava or wrapping my scarf around my face as it keeps me warm when out with the dogs! I'll also keep my sunglasses on when it is sunny if that's OK?

No, I wouldn't just blank the people in your example. You cannot establish a friendship or any other sort of relationship with someone who covers their face 100% of the time though.

My statement still stands as true; you cannot have an interaction on a equal social footing with someone who's face is covered. Yes, THEY are the integration problem. THEIR face covering prevents THEM integrating with other people because other people cannot build a relationship with them.

The examples you cite in your final paragraph are not the same. The point of the burka is to hide the face from other people, wearing something because of the weather is just that - protection of your face from the weather. No has suggested a ban on this. The primary purpose is not to hide your self from others - because that is not how human beings work.

[J4CKO]

heyhomes said:

J4CKO said:

Everyone should be able to wear whatever they want

No they shouldn't. By that thinking it should be totally ok for a middle aged man to walk down the street chatting to kids in nothing but stockings, suspenders and a micro thong? Or the man who was arrested for his t-shirt mocking Hillsborough victims should have been allowed to wear it with pride because it's 'what he wants'?

These are quiet extreme examples, but to many the sight of a burkha is just as offensive because of what it really represents in the societies from which it originated: the suppression and subjugation of women.

I think if a chap wants to cross dress then that is fine, as long as it fits in with existing decency laws, as long as his genitalia arent on display then I am not sure what law he would be breaking, same as if he wears his speedos on the beach, to be fair scantily dressed middle aged transvestites arent generally a big problem, some countruies actually allow people to not wear any clothes shock, horror, of course the sight of a flaccid penis is enough to traumatise everyone, I have lost two stone and can see mine again and need counselling.

The cretin with the Hillsborough t Shirt, that isnt the garment that is the problem, anything could have an offensive picture or slogan on it, he could equally be holding a placard, and to be honest though that is deeply offensive and I question his mental state, he is entitled to express himself but he is opening himself up for a lot of abuse, I am sure if a member of a family of a victim saw him they would be offended and upset but compared to what they have been through I would imagine they would just, like I chalk that one down to mental illness.

I did mention the origin of the Burkha, I dont like it, I think it is de-humanizing, but offended on Muslim womens behalf, nope, that is their problem to deal with and us middle aged white blokes intervening, even when not is sussies probably wouldnt help, like banning it doesnt, bans rarely work, Fox hunting, Prohibition etc.

[Dakkon]

Wills2 said:

Merkel calls for a ban, for once I agree with her.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/06/angela-...

She is scared that she wont get elected later next year, she is now chasing popularity votes.

[J4CKO]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

"crotchless chaps with no undercrackers"

Covered by normal decency legislation, basically you cant go round with your bits on display, other than that, cant see the problem.


Its some Muslim women wearing them, doesnt cause me any issue, yes we are tolerant and that is what this country is about, I like that, I can say and do, pretty much anything as long as it doesnt actually hurt anyone else.

Try actually banning the Burka and they will start flying off the shelves, leave them to it, one day they will realise how idiotic it looks and how uncomfortable it is.

[Digga]

J4CKO said:

Try actually banning the Burka and they will start flying off the shelves, leave them to it, one day they will realise how idiotic it looks and how uncomfortable it is.

You're working on the assumption the wearer is actually a party to the decision rather than the subject of it.

[AJL308]

Dakkon said:

Wills2 said:

Merkel calls for a ban, for once I agree with her.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/06/angela-...

She is scared that she wont get elected later next year, she is now chasing popularity votes.

Agreed entirely. Surely she gave a slight bit of consideration to this when she opened the borders to over a million Muslims?

Having said that I agree with what she is saying now.

[WinstonWolf]

The Burka is very similar to "the forum effect". Notice how everyone starts jumping down each other's throats so quickly online? In part that's because we lack the visual clues to understand the meaning of the words.

"You tt" unless you can see my face you won't know if I'm having a laugh with you or I if really think you're a tt...

[J4CKO]

Digga said:

J4CKO said:

Try actually banning the Burka and they will start flying off the shelves, leave them to it, one day they will realise how idiotic it looks and how uncomfortable it is.

You're working on the assumption the wearer is actually a party to the decision rather than the subject of it.

Net result is the same whether it is choice or enforced I guess though, we will never know as when asked they arent going to say "My husband beats me if I dont wear it".

I do think they are vile items for the record/

[Murph7355]

AJL308 said:

No, I wouldn't just blank the people in your example. You cannot establish a friendship or any other sort of relationship with someone who covers their face 100% of the time though.

My statement still stands as true; you cannot have an interaction on a equal social footing with someone who's face is covered. Yes, THEY are the integration problem. THEIR face covering prevents THEM integrating with other people because other people cannot build a relationship with them.

The examples you cite in your final paragraph are not the same. The point of the burka is to hide the face from other people, wearing something because of the weather is just that - protection of your face from the weather. No has suggested a ban on this. The primary purpose is not to hide your self from others - because that is not how human beings work.

Have you ever tried to establish a friendship with someone wearing a burka? Have you even spoken to someone doing so (or are you on your toes like danllama)? Do you think they wear them every waking minute?

I find myself wondering how old you and Winston are...Surpirse me and say sub-50

I have a far, far bigger problem with integration where learning the language is concerned, or citing hatred towards your host. Attire is incidental, and if you cannot work around someone looking different to you, be it through chosen garb or other reasons, then you very much have a problem.

Winston tells me British people think this rude. I'm British and do not. I find intolerance rude, and this is nothing more than intolerance no matter how you dress it up (or try not to. In law )

AJL308 said:

Agreed entirely. Surely she gave a slight bit of consideration to this when she opened the borders to over a million Muslims?

Having said that I agree with what she is saying now.

Of course you agree with what she is saying now. She is reinforcing your opinion. That is also human nature

[WinstonWolf]

Murph7355 said:

AJL308 said:

No, I wouldn't just blank the people in your example. You cannot establish a friendship or any other sort of relationship with someone who covers their face 100% of the time though.

My statement still stands as true; you cannot have an interaction on a equal social footing with someone who's face is covered. Yes, THEY are the integration problem. THEIR face covering prevents THEM integrating with other people because other people cannot build a relationship with them.

The examples you cite in your final paragraph are not the same. The point of the burka is to hide the face from other people, wearing something because of the weather is just that - protection of your face from the weather. No has suggested a ban on this. The primary purpose is not to hide your self from others - because that is not how human beings work.

Have you ever tried to establish a friendship with someone wearing a burka? Have you even spoken to someone doing so (or are you on your toes like danllama)? Do you think they wear them every waking minute?

I find myself wondering how old you and Winston are...Surpirse me and say sub-50

I have a far, far bigger problem with integration where learning the language is concerned, or citing hatred towards your host. Attire is incidental, and if you cannot work around someone looking different to you, be it through chosen garb or other reasons, then you very much have a problem.

Winston tells me British people think this rude. I'm British and do not. I find intolerance rude, and this is nothing more than intolerance no matter how you dress it up (or try not to. In law )

AJL308 said:

Agreed entirely. Surely she gave a slight bit of consideration to this when she opened the borders to over a million Muslims?

Having said that I agree with what she is saying now.

Of course you agree with what she is saying now. She is reinforcing your opinion. That is also human nature

Should we be tolerant of the intolerant?

You're not going to go all ageist on us now are you?

[EarlOfHazard]

For me, Niquabs and Burkas should be banned. The head scarves that don't cover the face should be ok. Heck, even Egypt and apparently Mecca have banned full face covering due to security risks.
I know plenty of devout muslim woman and they don't wear these headscarves. It isn't a religious requirement to wear headscarves anyway. The reason that they do it is to fly in the face of integration; we suggest a ban and they cry victimisation, racism and Islamophobia. The West in general, can't win.
There are Syrian women who burned their burkas in defiance of being forced to wear it; and the silly tarts here who wear it here have no idea how lucky that they have it. It's an insult to their muslim sisters in these ME countries fighting brutal oppression where they're treated as second class citizens.

[Murph7355]

WinstonWolf said:

Should we be tolerant of the intolerant?

You're not going to go all ageist on us now are you?

Most of us are being tolerant of the intolerant. I won't ask for you to be banned from here due to your intolerant views, for example

As for being ageist, no. I'm getting too old for that. I was just wanting my own prejudice/assumption to be shattered and learn that you were under 50 and don't read the Daily Mail ever

[AJL308]

Murph7355 said:

AJL308 said:

No, I wouldn't just blank the people in your example. You cannot establish a friendship or any other sort of relationship with someone who covers their face 100% of the time though.

My statement still stands as true; you cannot have an interaction on a equal social footing with someone who's face is covered. Yes, THEY are the integration problem. THEIR face covering prevents THEM integrating with other people because other people cannot build a relationship with them.

The examples you cite in your final paragraph are not the same. The point of the burka is to hide the face from other people, wearing something because of the weather is just that - protection of your face from the weather. No has suggested a ban on this. The primary purpose is not to hide your self from others - because that is not how human beings work.

Have you ever tried to establish a friendship with someone wearing a burka? Have you even spoken to someone doing so (or are you on your toes like danllama)? Do you think they wear them every waking minute?

I find myself wondering how old you and Winston are...Surpirse me and say sub-50

I have a far, far bigger problem with integration where learning the language is concerned, or citing hatred towards your host. Attire is incidental, and if you cannot work around someone looking different to you, be it through chosen garb or other reasons, then you very much have a problem.

Winston tells me British people think this rude. I'm British and do not. I find intolerance rude, and this is nothing more than intolerance no matter how you dress it up (or try not to. In law )

AJL308 said:

Agreed entirely. Surely she gave a slight bit of consideration to this when she opened the borders to over a million Muslims?

Having said that I agree with what she is saying now.

Of course you agree with what she is saying now. She is reinforcing your opinion. That is also human nature

I'm a white male - how the fk am I remotely supposed to strike up a friendship with a Muslim woman, of any age, who's face is obscured when the reason for that facial obscuring is to prevent that very thing?

They may not wear them "every waking hour" but the point of them is to prevent men seeing their faces. So - again - how does a man form a friendship with a woman who's face must be obscured 100% of the time they are in the same room? I have loads of female friends. None whom wear a Burka though. Again, I ask, how do you form a friendship, or any type of relationship with someone who's face you are never allowed to see? You cannot do so. You can claim the opposite but you are wrong. How many Burka wearing female friends do you have who's faces you have never seen? None, I would suggest.

You say that if I cannot work around someone looking different then I have a problem. You again miss the whole point - perhaps intentionally? It's not about looking different because of the way someone dresses; it's about the fact that you cannot see their face. Human relationship building is based on facial reaction to a huge extent. That is how we operate - it's biological.

So, no, I do not believe that it is possible to form an actual, real life friendship with someone who intentionally obscures their face from you.

Yes, I agree with Merkel on this issue. I didn't say that I thought she actually believed what she was saying, just that what she said happened to coincide with my opinion on the matter.

[WinstonWolf]

Murph7355 said:

WinstonWolf said:

Should we be tolerant of the intolerant?

You're not going to go all ageist on us now are you?

Most of us are being tolerant of the intolerant. I won't ask for you to be banned from here due to your intolerant views, for example

As for being ageist, no. I'm getting too old for that. I was just wanting my own prejudice/assumption to be shattered and learn that you were under 50 and don't read the Daily Mail ever

I'm around twenty eight and never read the DM, not that it should matter...

I'm not intolerant, I merely have a differing viewpoint to you.

If people choose to cover their face they need to understand that they will disadvantage themselves in society.

[AJL308]

Murph7355 said:

WinstonWolf said:

Should we be tolerant of the intolerant?

You're not going to go all ageist on us now are you?

Most of us are being tolerant of the intolerant. I won't ask for you to be banned from here due to your intolerant views, for example

As for being ageist, no. I'm getting too old for that. I was just wanting my own prejudice/assumption to be shattered and learn that you were under 50 and don't read the Daily Mail ever

Well both apply to me.