ITV This Morning "Ban the burka?" poll
Discussion
WinstonWolf said:
TTwiggy said:
WinstonWolf said:
TTwiggy said:
SKP555 said:
everything free and open societies like our own stand for.
Like getting pissed and topless pictures in newspapers?http://www.page3.com/sol/homepage/page3/
I don't think that anything requires banning, but I also think a full veil is inappropriate in some places and would wholeheartedly support anyone who chose not to allow balaclavas, crash helmets or burkhas in their place of business.
What I really dislike are those who label such people some kind of bigot.
What I really dislike are those who label such people some kind of bigot.
del mar said:
del mar said:
Roman Rhodes said:
I honestly don't think it is a struggle to understand what aspects of an "extreme interpretation" of a religion are acceptable.
Covering your face unless required for practical reasons (safety and security primarily): Acceptable.
"Killing all non-believers": Unacceptable.
Taking your Swiss example, the Swiss courts have ruled: Unacceptable.
"The idea of rights is the Bain of modern society, we will end up in knots trying to work out whose rights are important." So you'd prefer it if no-one had any rights? Easier to avoid getting in knots if we don't invent lots of hypothetical 'what ifs'. We have a system of laws in place designed to support a fair and harmonious society. Their success is a different debate. This debate is about introducing another law - to ban the burqa. My view is that such a law would not be helpful, in fact quite the reverse. That is not the same as saying the burqa is a 'good thing' or that their aren't issues regarding integration and segregation - it is simply saying that these issues are more complex and need a considered approach if we want a more cohesive society. The recent Casey report raises many good points.
So some extreme interpretations of Islamic religious texts are ok - excellent, perhaps you can work with Anjem Choudray to come up with which ones you are ok with. You may not think it is a struggle but the rest of the Muslim World find it very difficult.Covering your face unless required for practical reasons (safety and security primarily): Acceptable.
"Killing all non-believers": Unacceptable.
Taking your Swiss example, the Swiss courts have ruled: Unacceptable.
"The idea of rights is the Bain of modern society, we will end up in knots trying to work out whose rights are important." So you'd prefer it if no-one had any rights? Easier to avoid getting in knots if we don't invent lots of hypothetical 'what ifs'. We have a system of laws in place designed to support a fair and harmonious society. Their success is a different debate. This debate is about introducing another law - to ban the burqa. My view is that such a law would not be helpful, in fact quite the reverse. That is not the same as saying the burqa is a 'good thing' or that their aren't issues regarding integration and segregation - it is simply saying that these issues are more complex and need a considered approach if we want a more cohesive society. The recent Casey report raises many good points.
I don't understand why the rights of the young Swiss boy to follow his religious beliefs are less important than the teachers rights to be treat with respect and common decency.
Regarding the Swiss boy it is quite difficult to have a compromise - either shake hands or not. The authorities ruled that his religion did not exempt him from the convention. If the ruling had gone the other way you could ask the same question. It is not a perfect world.
del mar said:
My neighbour is a Muslim from Pakistan, she wears no religious attire - other than when she goes to the house of an older male relative, her choice ofcourse...
Our families have been on holiday many times - we went to Nice the week after the Terrorist attack. Her 9 year old daughter was worried about Terrorists - don't worry they will all be down the mosque.
She wear a tankini not a string bikini and feels no need to cover herself head to toe in a black sheet when she sees me.
Could I have a friendship and go on a summer holiday with a woman whose face I had never seen ?
Not great logic again. Do all women who don't wear Burkas want to go on holiday with you?Our families have been on holiday many times - we went to Nice the week after the Terrorist attack. Her 9 year old daughter was worried about Terrorists - don't worry they will all be down the mosque.
She wear a tankini not a string bikini and feels no need to cover herself head to toe in a black sheet when she sees me.
Could I have a friendship and go on a summer holiday with a woman whose face I had never seen ?
@winston, Courtney for me please.
EarlOfHazard said:
del mar said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-2...
Pan Pan Pan said:
There was an issue some years back regarding the wearing of crash helmets on motorcycles, which contradicted the requirements for Sikhs to wear a turban, which seemed to have been suitably resolved, but not sure how, unless the turban was deemed to provide some protection for the wearer. I for one can not remember ever seeing a Sikh riding a motorcycle ever since then.
Some years back...indeed it was 1976!Turban wearing Sikhs are exempt from wearing a crash helmet under the act.
I see plenty of them around my way riding motorcycles in a turban......even after all these years, it still looks very odd, especially the few I see riding sports bikes!!
Roman Rhodes said:
EarlOfHazard said:
del mar said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-2...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's the conundrum. If you have people who don't want to integrate. They won't integrate. The unveiling is really for anyone but them. It might drive them to not come out in public, which might make some people feel better. But it's unlikely to help integration. Especially in the short term. I think wearers have to realise the problems, perceived or real, of the bad publicity it creates for their religion amongst a sizeable proportion of the public. It's a battle of hearts and minds, and forcing someone to not wear it won't solve anything in the short term. That's my view.
Alpinestars said:
That's the conundrum. If you have people who don't want to integrate. They won't integrate. The unveiling is really for anyone but them. It might drive them to not come out in public, which might make some people feel better. But it's unlikely to help integration. Especially in the short term. I think wearers have to realise the problems, perceived or real, of the bad publicity it creates for their religion amongst a sizeable proportion of the public. It's a battle of hearts and minds, and forcing someone to not wear it won't solve anything in the short term.
That's my view.
I agree with this, but part of their coming around to the realisation this is not a good idea must be the freedom of business owners etc. to refuse service on those grounds, without fear of hysterical over-reaction - to be able to have the same debate and argument they may well also have with, say, motorcyclists or hoodies.That's my view.
del mar said:
That is hardly a fair comparison.
How do you find you interact with right wing Nazi white supremacists ?
In words of one syllable usually. It seems to be very effective. How do you find you interact with right wing Nazi white supremacists ?
If you're equating the Burka with nazis are you suggesting that Right Wing White Supremacist Nazis should be banned as well?
Probably not because RWWS Nazis are entitled to free speech etc etc whereas people who wear the burka shouldn't be entitled to freedom of choice.....
Alpinestars said:
Not great logic again. Do all women who don't wear Burkas want to go on holiday with you?
@winston, Courtney for me please.
What ?@winston, Courtney for me please.
It was in response to ttwigy's question as to whether I could have the same relationship with a veiled woman as an unveiled one.
i could not have the Same relationship with her if she dressed in a black sheet.
Digga said:
I agree with this, but part of their coming around to the realisation this is not a good idea must be the freedom of business owners etc. to refuse service on those grounds, without fear of hysterical over-reaction - to be able to have the same debate and argument they may well also have with, say, motorcyclists or hoodies.
So simplistic. What about me refusing to provide you tax services because I don't like you/what you wear/what you drive etc? And again, what are the consequences and what's your bone? If it's integration, do you think the burka wearers will all of a sudden be drinking with you on a Friday night once the ban comes into force, or do you think they'll be at home instead, therefore not integrating. Would that make you feel better?
Alpinestars said:
Digga said:
I agree with this, but part of their coming around to the realisation this is not a good idea must be the freedom of business owners etc. to refuse service on those grounds, without fear of hysterical over-reaction - to be able to have the same debate and argument they may well also have with, say, motorcyclists or hoodies.
So simplistic. What about me refusing to provide you tax services because I don't like you/what you wear/what you drive etc? And again, what are the consequences and what's your bone? If it's integration, do you think the burka wearers will all of a sudden be drinking with you on a Friday night once the ban comes into force, or do you think they'll be at home instead, therefore not integrating. Would that make you feel better?
I would guess that the tiny, tiny minority that are minded to wear burkas might not integrate in the same way as most other Muslims do, but then maybe they will. To disambiguate (and see my prior statement on this) I'm not in favour of a ban, merely in favour of people having te freedom to comment (politely) on the issue without fear of being pilloried as racist, bigoted or intolerant.
Alpinestars said:
That's the conundrum. If you have people who don't want to integrate. They won't integrate. The unveiling is really for anyone but them. It might drive them to not come out in public, which might make some people feel better. But it's unlikely to help integration. Especially in the short term. I think wearers have to realise the problems, perceived or real, of the bad publicity it creates for their religion amongst a sizeable proportion of the public. It's a battle of hearts and minds, and forcing someone to not wear it won't solve anything in the short term.
That's my view.
And it's a sensible one That's my view.
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