ITV This Morning "Ban the burka?" poll
Discussion
chrispmartha said:
Flip side, forcing people to conform will not aid integration either.
That's a strange claim. How does someone who wears a burka achieve integration? They're not going to be engaged by people who feel uncomfortable talking to them, so how does this work?I thought the purpose of the burka was to isolate the woman from other people. Have I got that wrong? I once tried to help one who dropped a bag in an airport and I was ignored and given the evil eye. Well, eyes, actually.
WinstonWolf said:
98elise said:
WinstonWolf said:
98elise said:
It a type of hat, I can't see why it should be banned.
If I wanted to wear sunglasses, a hat, and a surgical mask then I should be able to. Its your problem if you don't like it.
I take it you struggle to interact in the real world?If I wanted to wear sunglasses, a hat, and a surgical mask then I should be able to. Its your problem if you don't like it.
Far better to educate.
(Where security requirements dictate, burkhas, helmets, pillow cases with holes, surgical marks etc etc should all be removed and people should accept that - the tolerance quid quo pro.)
fesuvious said:
The Problem?
I'll say it.
Whatever spin any person wishes to apply, and no matter what the response persons from any particular demographic wish to give;
In this country, and many other, primarily western countries there is a dislike & mistrust of Islam.
Yes face coverings are undesirable. No matter if a helmet, balaclava or anything else but that is different. That is the fact that communication by expression is important. Plus its a trust thing.
This, well is out and out mistrust>hatred of Islam.
Nothing to do with skin colour, nor overall 'tolerance' it's Islam, pure and simple.
I am and have always been in favor of banning face coverings in public and it's not due to a distrust of Islam. Although Islamic reasons for them are more concerning than most.I'll say it.
Whatever spin any person wishes to apply, and no matter what the response persons from any particular demographic wish to give;
In this country, and many other, primarily western countries there is a dislike & mistrust of Islam.
Yes face coverings are undesirable. No matter if a helmet, balaclava or anything else but that is different. That is the fact that communication by expression is important. Plus its a trust thing.
This, well is out and out mistrust>hatred of Islam.
Nothing to do with skin colour, nor overall 'tolerance' it's Islam, pure and simple.
Edited by fesuvious on Wednesday 7th December 11:10
No one should be allowed to cover their face in public unless they are doing it for safety reasons or some reason required in law. Leaving aside the issue of people hiding their identity it just isn't how our society operates. We interact with people's faces not just their eyes.
AJL308 said:
No one should be allowed to cover their face in public unless they are doing it for safety reasons or some reason required in law. Leaving aside the issue of people hiding their identity it just isn't how our society operates. We interact with people's faces not just their eyes.
Generally agree, but I'd make an exception in the case of Diane Abbott....
I do not beleive wearing a mask in public is acceptable, in any form or manner. Be it the high street, supermarket, whatever. Any garment, article which shows only the eyes should be barred from use in public, Oh, and yes, the removal of full face motorcycle helmets whilst not on the machine should also be looked at.
Masks can need to be worn , in work environments for protection against fumes, dust, etc etc, but in everyday life, nope,
Masks can need to be worn , in work environments for protection against fumes, dust, etc etc, but in everyday life, nope,
Murph7355 said:
WinstonWolf said:
98elise said:
WinstonWolf said:
98elise said:
It a type of hat, I can't see why it should be banned.
If I wanted to wear sunglasses, a hat, and a surgical mask then I should be able to. Its your problem if you don't like it.
I take it you struggle to interact in the real world?If I wanted to wear sunglasses, a hat, and a surgical mask then I should be able to. Its your problem if you don't like it.
Far better to educate.
(Where security requirements dictate, burkhas, helmets, pillow cases with holes, surgical marks etc etc should all be removed and people should accept that - the tolerance quid quo pro.)
mybrainhurts said:
chrispmartha said:
Flip side, forcing people to conform will not aid integration either.
That's a strange claim. How does someone who wears a burka achieve integration? They're not going to be engaged by people who feel uncomfortable talking to them, so how does this work?I thought the purpose of the burka was to isolate the woman from other people. Have I got that wrong? I once tried to help one who dropped a bag in an airport and I was ignored and given the evil eye. Well, eyes, actually.
mybrainhurts said:
AJL308 said:
No one should be allowed to cover their face in public unless they are doing it for safety reasons or some reason required in law. Leaving aside the issue of people hiding their identity it just isn't how our society operates. We interact with people's faces not just their eyes.
Generally agree, but I'd make an exception in the case of Diane Abbott....AJL308 said:
mybrainhurts said:
AJL308 said:
No one should be allowed to cover their face in public unless they are doing it for safety reasons or some reason required in law. Leaving aside the issue of people hiding their identity it just isn't how our society operates. We interact with people's faces not just their eyes.
Generally agree, but I'd make an exception in the case of Diane Abbott....mybrainhurts said:
chrispmartha said:
Flip side, forcing people to conform will not aid integration either.
That's a strange claim. How does someone who wears a burka achieve integration? They're not going to be engaged by people who feel uncomfortable talking to them, so how does this work?I thought the purpose of the burka was to isolate the woman from other people. Have I got that wrong? I once tried to help one who dropped a bag in an airport and I was ignored and given the evil eye. Well, eyes, actually.
And also whete did I say wearing burkas helped integration? Its a complex situation which i dont think will be helped by banning things.
And your one anecdote? Maybe she was just a grumpy sod
chrispmartha said:
mybrainhurts said:
chrispmartha said:
Flip side, forcing people to conform will not aid integration either.
That's a strange claim. How does someone who wears a burka achieve integration? They're not going to be engaged by people who feel uncomfortable talking to them, so how does this work?I thought the purpose of the burka was to isolate the woman from other people. Have I got that wrong? I once tried to help one who dropped a bag in an airport and I was ignored and given the evil eye. Well, eyes, actually.
And also whete did I say wearing burkas helped integration? Its a complex situation which i dont think will be helped by banning things.
And your one anecdote? Maybe she was just a grumpy sod
Cotty said:
I don't think anyone should be walking around with their face covered, imagine if our own police force started wearing masks or helmets (and refused to remove them) there would be uproar.
This is sort of where i come from.If I saw a person walking down the Norwich High street in a balaclava and ski mask unless it was -10 and snowing I would be asking questions in my head.
When I go to places where it is -10 or lower people do have their faces covered until they walk inside then it is a race to see who can strip the most layers off the fastest with hats, balaclavas, gloves and masks being the first off.
As I understand it the Burka is not a full part of Islam but something that a certain hardliner sect of the religion has decreed is required. As such it is an optional extra, not a religious requirement anymore than it was a requirement of odd Christian sects that the women must all have nooky with the big cheese. There is however a general requirement that both men and women dress modestly and whilst it's not my bag i sort of see the hair covering thing. I have no issues with the Hijab (find then strangely alluring on a lady with the right bone structure) nor any issues with the Chador, not a fan of that though. As for the Niqab and the Burka - save them for Islamic states, we should not be forced to accept them any more than we should an Irish chap walking down the road with a table leg, a packet of marzipan and a balaclava in mid June.
chrispmartha said:
mybrainhurts said:
chrispmartha said:
Flip side, forcing people to conform will not aid integration either.
That's a strange claim. How does someone who wears a burka achieve integration? They're not going to be engaged by people who feel uncomfortable talking to them, so how does this work?I thought the purpose of the burka was to isolate the woman from other people. Have I got that wrong? I once tried to help one who dropped a bag in an airport and I was ignored and given the evil eye. Well, eyes, actually.
And also whete did I say wearing burkas helped integration? Its a complex situation which i dont think will be helped by banning things.
And your one anecdote? Maybe she was just a grumpy sod
I refuse to believe any of us Non Muslims could have a meaningful friendship with a woman dressed head to toe in a black sheet, where you have never seen her face. You are just talking to a black sheet.
If their religious dress is more important than wider society then perhaps they are not for our society.
WinstonWolf said:
Education is key, no woman would choose to wear one unless she's been exposed to indoctrination at some point in her life. We need to educate people that wearing one is rude and the Brits don't like bad manners...
Generally I wouldn't go assuming what the one woman in my life would choose to do, let alone them all. I'm sure there are some women compelled to wear one who don't want to. That is wrong. Equally I'm sure that there are some who are fine enough wearing it as a symbol/part of their beliefs. To preclude them from doing so in law is also wrong.
That you or I do not understand their religion and the drivers behind some customs is irrelevant and a bigger damning indictment on us than them frankly.
If you're gunning for religious garb then ban it all. But we cannot allow our own prejudices to single people out in law.
del mar said:
On Monday we have a report stating that Muslims do not integrate and it is causing social issues in society. Yet some in society are defending their right to dress in a black sheet. Which will lead to white flight and large areas that are only Muslim, and then people will say "We have an integration problem...."
I refuse to believe any of us Non Muslims could have a meaningful friendship with a woman dressed head to toe in a black sheet, where you have never seen her face. You are just talking to a black sheet.
If their religious dress is more important than wider society then perhaps they are not for our society.
And this is the point. Our society is based on facial recognition and facial communication. A person who entirely covers their face cannot possibly forge new friendships and other relationships because that is not how humans communicate. It is an utter impossibility - which is, of course, the whole point of covering a woman's face in the societies from which these practices originate. So that they cannot "stray".I refuse to believe any of us Non Muslims could have a meaningful friendship with a woman dressed head to toe in a black sheet, where you have never seen her face. You are just talking to a black sheet.
If their religious dress is more important than wider society then perhaps they are not for our society.
No Muslim woman will ever "integrate" with wider UK society if they keep their faces covered. Banning the wearing of full-face coverings in public will far better integrate people than continuing to allow them.
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