Discussion
Just as America is doing with China maybe this is our reevaluation of a relation that needs it. The spread of dangerous ideologies from that region is hurting the western world and we seem blind to it because of money.
I find the idea that our foreign secretary is speaking his mind on the issue refreshing. We should not cower from our beliefs or principals. We don't need Saudi Arabia. I'm sure other opec countries would happily fill the void.
Times are a changing.
I find the idea that our foreign secretary is speaking his mind on the issue refreshing. We should not cower from our beliefs or principals. We don't need Saudi Arabia. I'm sure other opec countries would happily fill the void.
Times are a changing.
I still think May's appointment of Boris (and L. Fox) is tactically brilliant. Shove them out there to say and do what they think, and no less - air what a few others are thinking, even if wildly disagreed with - and when it gets all too much on some other front, can them expediently & thoroughly (but no, not for Brexit, except for the ways it can go wrong on their watch).
I bet T. May plays rather a good game of Chess.
I bet T. May plays rather a good game of Chess.
This all seems like a lot of fuss over very little.
Hardly what anyone with a brain knows to be true about Saudi Arabia, either, that it's a blood soaked, medieval basket case country which would be even less relevant to the world than it's adversary Yemen were it not for it's vast oil wealth. Nearly all of which it has squandered on supporting terrorism and promoting ever madder strains of salafist ideology.
What is anyone actually worried about happening as a result of these comments?
What on earth sort of a foreign policy can we run if a comment as innocuous and evidently true as that from a British Foreign Secretary is considered so extreme as to call his future in the role into question?
This is total b
ks. Nothing to do with our relationship with Saudi Arabia, which so long as they still sell us oil and buy Range Rovers won't really change. They'll still even let us use their air bases to bomb their enemies for them, I am sure.
It’s internal Tory party politics.
Madman Boris said:
In the footage from last week, Mr Johnson said: "There are politicians who are twisting and abusing religion and different strains of the same religion in order to further their own political objectives.
"That's one of the biggest political problems in the whole region. And the tragedy for me - and that's why you have these proxy wars being fought the whole time in that area - is that there is not strong enough leadership in the countries themselves."
The foreign secretary told the Med 2 conference in Rome: "There are not enough big characters, big people, men or women, who are willing to reach out beyond their Sunni or Shia or whatever group to the other side and bring people together and to develop a national story again.
"That is what's lacking. And that's the tragedy," he said, adding that "visionary leadership" was needed in the region.
He went on: "That's why you've got the Saudis, Iran, everybody, moving in and puppeteering and playing proxy wars."
Hardly a declaration of war is it?"That's one of the biggest political problems in the whole region. And the tragedy for me - and that's why you have these proxy wars being fought the whole time in that area - is that there is not strong enough leadership in the countries themselves."
The foreign secretary told the Med 2 conference in Rome: "There are not enough big characters, big people, men or women, who are willing to reach out beyond their Sunni or Shia or whatever group to the other side and bring people together and to develop a national story again.
"That is what's lacking. And that's the tragedy," he said, adding that "visionary leadership" was needed in the region.
He went on: "That's why you've got the Saudis, Iran, everybody, moving in and puppeteering and playing proxy wars."
Hardly what anyone with a brain knows to be true about Saudi Arabia, either, that it's a blood soaked, medieval basket case country which would be even less relevant to the world than it's adversary Yemen were it not for it's vast oil wealth. Nearly all of which it has squandered on supporting terrorism and promoting ever madder strains of salafist ideology.
What is anyone actually worried about happening as a result of these comments?
What on earth sort of a foreign policy can we run if a comment as innocuous and evidently true as that from a British Foreign Secretary is considered so extreme as to call his future in the role into question?
This is total b
ks. Nothing to do with our relationship with Saudi Arabia, which so long as they still sell us oil and buy Range Rovers won't really change. They'll still even let us use their air bases to bomb their enemies for them, I am sure.It’s internal Tory party politics.
Meh, non story really, apart from the fact its Boris and that gives some to pay extra interest from an anti Tory standpoint. I was only surprised it wasn't the MarshPhantom who got to start the thread first. Bit silly in many ways in that you are point scoring and not really talking about if what he said is accurate, which nearly everyone thinks was an outbreak of honest, accurate speaking.
loafer123 said:
You can almost see them playing out the rope as he grabs the noose...
Quite.The press conference he did with John Kerry a couple of months ago was cringworthy. Kerry made him look like a kid.
I like the bloke, but I'll give him a couple more 'off message, but probably true' statements and he'll be toast.
Gove will be up next.
pim said:
Nice to hear a top politician to say what is really happening.
Boris is a populist in my opinion but he has gone up a notch or two.
I'm kind of liking Trump for similar reasons (comments on China). Our politicians have long been slimy with their words, grey men with no personalities, it's nice to have some direct speakers for a changeBoris is a populist in my opinion but he has gone up a notch or two.
Willy Nilly said:
The government is being diplomatic, but they are all thinking what Boris said. People want politicians to tell the truth, then when they do they complain about it.
Isn't the point of the Foreign Sec to be diplomatic?Most of us know what Saudi Arabia is doing. It is hardly a secret. I doubt the Saudis are unaware what Johnson and the government think of them. We had May go to SA a few days ago to negotiate something that will be vital to us post brexit, a trade deal. So Johnson's casual condemnation of them, almost at the same time, is hardly something that will encourage further deals.
Face isn't something unique to Japan.
Regardless of whether you think we should be selling arms to SA, casually causing diplomatic problems is not what he should be doing. He doesn't seem to be able to help himself.
Or, come to that, help us.
Derek Smith said:
So the dolt does something that did not surprise anyone. The only remarkable thing is that it has taken him this long.
Regardless of what one thinks of Saudi Arabia, Johnson undermined the government by mouthing off.
Still, the blame lies with May for awarding one of the great offices of state to someone whose skills set doesn't include considering what he will do or say.
Then there was that scatterbrain Truss who was made Lord Chancellor! When first tested, over the attacks on the appeal court, she failed miserably. Again, May is to blame for putting someone totally unsuited into the very complex and difficult role.
One hopes that May did a better job with Davies and Fox, but somehow I don't think she did.
Who?Regardless of what one thinks of Saudi Arabia, Johnson undermined the government by mouthing off.
Still, the blame lies with May for awarding one of the great offices of state to someone whose skills set doesn't include considering what he will do or say.
Then there was that scatterbrain Truss who was made Lord Chancellor! When first tested, over the attacks on the appeal court, she failed miserably. Again, May is to blame for putting someone totally unsuited into the very complex and difficult role.
One hopes that May did a better job with Davies and Fox, but somehow I don't think she did.
edh said:
It's the response from no.10 that is pisspoor
Will ministers have to state whether they are speaking for themselves or for thd government every time they open their mouths?
On balance I agree with this.Will ministers have to state whether they are speaking for themselves or for thd government every time they open their mouths?
Derek Smith said:
...
Isn't the point of the Foreign Sec to be diplomatic?
...
I'm not sure it is.Isn't the point of the Foreign Sec to be diplomatic?
...
Aren't they there to set and project foreign policy? If that now means being less tolerant to the less tolerant countries then frankly I'd give it a thumbs up.
Derek Smith said:
Willy Nilly said:
The government is being diplomatic, but they are all thinking what Boris said. People want politicians to tell the truth, then when they do they complain about it.
Isn't the point of the Foreign Sec to be diplomatic?Most of us know what Saudi Arabia is doing. It is hardly a secret. I doubt the Saudis are unaware what Johnson and the government think of them. We had May go to SA a few days ago to negotiate something that will be vital to us post brexit, a trade deal. So Johnson's casual condemnation of them, almost at the same time, is hardly something that will encourage further deals.
Face isn't something unique to Japan.
Regardless of whether you think we should be selling arms to SA, casually causing diplomatic problems is not what he should be doing. He doesn't seem to be able to help himself.
Or, come to that, help us.
Maybe it's time for a bit of naming and shaming.
Mark Benson said:
Derek Smith said:
Willy Nilly said:
The government is being diplomatic, but they are all thinking what Boris said. People want politicians to tell the truth, then when they do they complain about it.
Isn't the point of the Foreign Sec to be diplomatic?Most of us know what Saudi Arabia is doing. It is hardly a secret. I doubt the Saudis are unaware what Johnson and the government think of them. We had May go to SA a few days ago to negotiate something that will be vital to us post brexit, a trade deal. So Johnson's casual condemnation of them, almost at the same time, is hardly something that will encourage further deals.
Face isn't something unique to Japan.
Regardless of whether you think we should be selling arms to SA, casually causing diplomatic problems is not what he should be doing. He doesn't seem to be able to help himself.
Or, come to that, help us.
Maybe it's time for a bit of naming and shaming.
We in this country, at least at the moment, are aware to a certain degree of the foreign wars being financed by SA.
You suggest that diplomacy doesn't work. I would suggest that there are many examples of where diplomacy has a positive effect on international relations. Further, you seem to want no wars. That's like something out of a beauty pageant wish list. There are always wars. However, do you think that Johnson's outburst has raised or lowered out influence in the area?
May was discussing trade relations with SA. I could think of a better time for Johnson to put his foot in it.
He said the wrong thing at the worst possible time. He is in the cabinet and, one would have thought, would have some degree of thought as to what he says, and when. He should be the mouthpiece of government foreign policy. Instead he is just mouthy.
Derek Smith said:
Mark Benson said:
Derek Smith said:
Willy Nilly said:
The government is being diplomatic, but they are all thinking what Boris said. People want politicians to tell the truth, then when they do they complain about it.
Isn't the point of the Foreign Sec to be diplomatic?Most of us know what Saudi Arabia is doing. It is hardly a secret. I doubt the Saudis are unaware what Johnson and the government think of them. We had May go to SA a few days ago to negotiate something that will be vital to us post brexit, a trade deal. So Johnson's casual condemnation of them, almost at the same time, is hardly something that will encourage further deals.
Face isn't something unique to Japan.
Regardless of whether you think we should be selling arms to SA, casually causing diplomatic problems is not what he should be doing. He doesn't seem to be able to help himself.
Or, come to that, help us.
Maybe it's time for a bit of naming and shaming.
We in this country, at least at the moment, are aware to a certain degree of the foreign wars being financed by SA.
You suggest that diplomacy doesn't work. I would suggest that there are many examples of where diplomacy has a positive effect on international relations. Further, you seem to want no wars. That's like something out of a beauty pageant wish list. There are always wars. However, do you think that Johnson's outburst has raised or lowered out influence in the area?
May was discussing trade relations with SA. I could think of a better time for Johnson to put his foot in it.
He said the wrong thing at the worst possible time. He is in the cabinet and, one would have thought, would have some degree of thought as to what he says, and when. He should be the mouthpiece of government foreign policy. Instead he is just mouthy.
Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
stitched said:
Not sure I get you here Derek.
Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
I get people not liking Boris I really do but this constant theme of calling him an idiot is absurd he is anything but. I take people back to the Olympics when he was stuck mid air for some time waving two union Jacks whilst a world wide audience laughed at his antics but he gor what he wanted World wide coverage for Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
"Team Boris"
stitched said:
Not sure I get you here Derek.
Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
This is not a question of telling lies or of honest opinion. Of course it isn't.Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
He is the foreign secretary and in the cabinet. This means that he has a specific job to do and spouting off, which is all he did, in a manner that is likely to make his colleagues' work more difficult is not what the job entails. Further, he did so when his prime minister was talking to the Saudis in order to get a trade deal. His timing was about as bad as it could be, unless of course . . . see later.
We need trade deals. Whether we need to sell arms to what is essentially an outlaw state is something that he, like many others, might disagree with. However, if he does and wants to spout off, he can't be part of the cabinet and do so.
His needs and desires are secondary to those of the country and if he feels that this trade deal is not in our best interests, then he needs to convince May.
However, he might have well timed his outburst to perfection if, as is possible, he is after replacing May when she goes. If so then this is close to treachery. He should not put his needs against those of the UK.
Whether we should deal with the Saudis is open to argument. However, is there anyone of any intelligence who doesn't know what the Saudis are doing in the middle east?
Why did he do it? I hope he had no specific reason and it was just a another of his normal silly errors. If it was deliberate, then it certainly wasn't to inform the public. It will be selfish.
Derek Smith said:
stitched said:
Not sure I get you here Derek.
Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
This is not a question of telling lies or of honest opinion. Of course it isn't.Politician tells it like he sees it, and a lot of us agree with his sentiments. = bad.
Politician lies throough his back teeth and misrepresents the facts to people he is supposed to represent. = good.
I'm not sure yet whether Boris is a buffoon or an extremely clever man but to castigate him for delivering an honest opinion, really?
He is the foreign secretary and in the cabinet. This means that he has a specific job to do and spouting off, which is all he did, in a manner that is likely to make his colleagues' work more difficult is not what the job entails. Further, he did so when his prime minister was talking to the Saudis in order to get a trade deal. His timing was about as bad as it could be, unless of course . . . see later.
We need trade deals. Whether we need to sell arms to what is essentially an outlaw state is something that he, like many others, might disagree with. However, if he does and wants to spout off, he can't be part of the cabinet and do so.
His needs and desires are secondary to those of the country and if he feels that this trade deal is not in our best interests, then he needs to convince May.
However, he might have well timed his outburst to perfection if, as is possible, he is after replacing May when she goes. If so then this is close to treachery. He should not put his needs against those of the UK.
Whether we should deal with the Saudis is open to argument. However, is there anyone of any intelligence who doesn't know what the Saudis are doing in the middle east?
Why did he do it? I hope he had no specific reason and it was just a another of his normal silly errors. If it was deliberate, then it certainly wasn't to inform the public. It will be selfish.
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