Man shot dead on M62 in pre-planned police operation

[Alpinestars]

SKP555 said:

Other groups have covered up - the BBC, the church, MPs etc and the cover up was widely discussed. I don't see how discussing the cover up diminishes or distracts from the crime. It seems that it was an important part of what enabled these crimes to be so widespread.

I think you're missing the thread. In isolation it does not detract, but if you follow the thread, the reason the cover up point was brought up in the first place was because of comments like, "white people never makes excuses for, or point to the actions of others...... they are thrown to the lions". "white nonces get dealt with in jails" "name another group that are protected [by court order]" You'll never hear a ****** justifying or normalising abuse" etc etc. THe point has not just appeared from the ether.

I'll reiterate, some posters appear to be drawing a distinction around sex/drug crimes, not in the crime itself, because that's just not tenable, but in the MO of the perpetrators/authorities. Unfortunately for them, that's not tenable either.

A crime is a crime is a crime. I don't give two hoots who commits it, they should be dealt with in the same way.

[Digga]

Alpinestars said:

Digga said:

Alpinestars said:

The perception may well exist. But unless you're telling me that people on this thread have complete information on asian grooming gangs, it's conjecture. Your words " we still don't know." By definition, conjecture.

None of us can possibly have "complete information", the suggestion itself is absurd. However, what we all do know, from the cases already prosecuted and, especially WRT Rotherham, is that the matter was raised by whistleblowers and was quashed, repeatedly and forcefully. This is where the subsequent scandal arose:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762739/Be...

This is not conjecture, it is established fact.

There will be established facts, I'm not disputing that. But why is it relevant unless you think that there are no cover ups involving other communities? It's surely demonstrable that cover ups happen, and they are not dependent on the race/religion of the perpetrators.

The abuse cover-ups are absolutely relevant, because not only do they relate to precisely the same community but, in all likelihood are often concerning the very same individuals - in other words some of the perpetrators are extremely likely to be common.

Again, there is no disputing the instances of abuse from other sectors of society and, ad nauseam, there are calls for those groups or organisations (e.g. MPs or the BBC) to face investigation. However, that's obfuscation of the subject of the OP - it is this which has very little to do with it. I am really not sure what you are attempting to achieve here.

[Alpinestars]

Digga said:

he abuse cover-ups are absolutely relevant, because not only do they relate to precisely the same community but, in all likelihood are often concerning the very same individuals - in other words some of the perpetrators are extremely likely to be common.

Again, there is no disputing the instances of abuse from other sectors of society and, ad nauseam, there are calls for those groups or organisations (e.g. MPs or the BBC) to face investigation. However, that's obfuscation of the subject of the OP - it is this which has very little to do with it. I am really not sure what you are attempting to achieve here.

What do you think the comments in my post above tried to achieve? I responded to those. I didn't set the ball rolling.

[Digga]

Alpinestars said:

What do you think the comments in my post above tried to achieve? I responded to those. I didn't set the ball rolling.

The fact there has already been a cover up, in regard to the community is regrettable and it is therefore understandable, that some people are unable to distinguish fact from fiction.

One thing which is clear is that police investigations in to this are now ongoing, so the cover-up no longer pertains, but obviously the progress of the law is no instant.

[Alpinestars]

Digga said:

The fact there has already been a cover up, in regard to the community is regrettable and it is therefore understandable, that some people are unable to distinguish fact from fiction.

One thing which is clear is that police investigations in to this are now ongoing, so the cover-up no longer pertains, but obviously the progress of the law is no instant.

Not sure what your point is here. Yes there are cover ups, regrettably it happens in life all the time.

I'm not sure why cover ups in this "community" are any more confusing for some posters on PH than cover ups by/for other "communities", eg those mentioned by SKP55.

What do you think gives rise to the implied/express statements that (cf Asians)(

White nonces are dealt with in jails;
White communities don't cover up for white people committing crime;
White perpetrators are not protected/their crimes covered up?

Edited by Alpinestars on Friday 13th January 13:13

[Digga]

Alpinestars said:

What do you think gives rise to the implied/express statements that (cf Asians)

A concern about what is going on. Since it has been covered up, people are naturally, rather upset and perhaps - at times - lacking in objectivity if not outright reason.

[SKP555]

Alpinestars
Isn't the whole point that people think certain crimes by Muslims are not being treated equally though?

[Spanglepants]

Yes growing up in Brixton late 60s and 70s heard and been called it many times

desolate said:

Has anyone on here actually ever heard the word honky used in the real world?

[Digga]

I think the other issue which vexes is, for those of us who realise the ills of covering up or trying to keep quiet, that a lack of clarity tends to tar 'Muslims' or 'Pakistanis' with the same brush, which is both wrong and undesirable for many, many reasons.

[anonymous-user]

Spanglepants said:

Yes growing up in Brixton late 60s and 70s heard and been called it many times

desolate said:

Has anyone on here actually ever heard the word honky used in the real world?

Fair point.

As some one pointed above I think it was also used in a 70s sitcom.

[Alpinestars]

Digga said:

I think the other issue which vexes is, for those of us who realise the ills of covering up or trying to keep quiet, that a lack of clarity tends to tar 'Muslims' or 'Pakistanis' with the same brush, which is both wrong and undesirable for many, many reasons.

Yes, with an extension to say that it's surprising that those people don't see other cover ups for what they are, for some reason, and don't tar those communities, for some reason.

[Digga]

Alpinestars said:

Digga said:

I think the other issue which vexes is, for those of us who realise the ills of covering up or trying to keep quiet, that a lack of clarity tends to tar 'Muslims' or 'Pakistanis' with the same brush, which is both wrong and undesirable for many, many reasons.

Yes, with an extension to say that it's surprising that those people don't see other cover ups for what they are, for some reason, and don't tar those communities, for some reason.

I and others here think people do; there is a definite perception of cover ups and just two examples (historic MPs and the BBC) were given. No one seeks to claim this does not happen elsewhere and with other groups, but rather than where there are groups perpetrating crime and abuse, they should all face the full force of the law, equally.

[Alpinestars]

SKP555 said:

Alpinestars
Isn't the whole point that people think certain crimes by Muslims are not being treated equally though?

No. I think people are trying to distinguish between similar crimes committed by all communities, not on the basis of the crime itself, but on the basis of the MO, apparently different treatment in prisons, apparently lower morals in exposing crimes and apparently being afforded better protection.

Let's have some objectivity. Otherwise I'm afraid it starts looking a bit like the word PH NP&E shouts down.

[Digga]

Alpinestars said:

No. I think people are trying to distinguish between similar crimes committed by all communities, not on the basis of the crime itself, but on the basis of the MO, apparently different treatment in prisons, apparently lower morals in exposing crimes and apparently being afforded better protection.

Let's have some objectivity. Otherwise I'm afraid it starts looking a bit like the word PH NP&E shouts down.

Don't be so utterly ridiculous.

Really.

[Alpinestars]

Digga said:

I and others here think people do; there is a definite perception of cover ups and just two examples (historic MPs and the BBC) were given. No one seeks to claim this does not happen elsewhere and with other groups, but rather than where there are groups perpetrating crime and abuse, they should all face the full force of the law, equally.

Digga, you come across as an intelligent guy, and whilst I might not agree with some of the stuff you say, I can empathise with many positions you take. But please don't speak for others by using a blanket statement like no one seeks to claim................. when people on this thread have implied white people are more moral about reporting crime, there are no cover ups with white crimes, and even you said that white nonces are dealt with in prison. There is a distinction being made by some. A statement to the contrary will not make the relevant posts disappear.

[Alpinestars]

Digga said:

Alpinestars said:

No. I think people are trying to distinguish between similar crimes committed by all communities, not on the basis of the crime itself, but on the basis of the MO, apparently different treatment in prisons, apparently lower morals in exposing crimes and apparently being afforded better protection.

Let's have some objectivity. Otherwise I'm afraid it starts looking a bit like the word PH NP&E shouts down.

Don't be so utterly ridiculous.

Really.

Jesus wept.

Don't you agree that there are posts about whites reporting crimes, whites being dealt with in prison, whites not being afforded protection?

[Digga]

Alpinestars, with respect, I'm being to suspect you of trolling, of repeated attempts to draw responses with which you might attempt to get the thread closed (maybe you have already put in such a request, who knows) and so am no longer going to respond. The debate is circular.

Back onto the topic and the deceased's father has commendably condemned the actions of some of the mobs protesting, which is perhaps why there are no further reports of such disturbances. That or the snow anyway.

Mohammed Yaqub said:

I did not want any violence whatsoever, not in my son’s memory.

I am not a violent person and never will be. Any protests should be peaceful. There is nothing to be gained by violence. Sometimes things get out of hand.

[Alpinestars]

Digga said:

Alpinestars, with respect, I'm being to suspect you of trolling, of repeated attempts to draw responses with which you might attempt to get the thread closed (maybe you have already put in such a request, who knows) and so am no longer going to respond. The debate is circular.

Back onto the topic and the deceased's father has commendably condemned the actions of some of the mobs protesting, which is perhaps why there are no further reports of such disturbances. That or the snow anyway.

Mohammed Yaqub said:

I did not want any violence whatsoever, not in my son’s memory.

I am not a violent person and never will be. Any protests should be peaceful. There is nothing to be gained by violence. Sometimes things get out of hand.

You clearly don't want to address the points raised, which is myopic, but fine.

I have not initiated anything on this thread, only responded to posts.

I also have a huge aversion to gangstas who carry guns and deal drugs, so no interest at all in closing the thread.

[SKP555]

Alpinestars said:

No. I think people are trying to distinguish between similar crimes committed by all communities, not on the basis of the crime itself, but on the basis of the MO, apparently different treatment in prisons, apparently lower morals in exposing crimes and apparently being afforded better protection.

Let's have some objectivity. Otherwise I'm afraid it starts looking a bit like the word PH NP&E shouts down.

Why aren't those things relevant?

It's not that word (I guess you mean racism?) It's a matter of how authorities respond to it, or don't.

[Vipers]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Vipers said:

Think Honkie is now considered a derogatory word now...........like the "N" word, so perhaps we shouldn't use it.

I am white.
I am not offended.

I find it a mildly humorous, though like some other words, context could make a difference.

Can't say I am offended either. Seems a word on "East Enders", upset some people this week, out come people shouting racists, again a word I can't see the problem with.