Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 4

[PRTVR]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

If you don't know - put you hand up and ask. I'll get back to you with some assistance.

Please sir....
There are two types of power requirements for a grid, peak and base load, which does solar and wind generators​ fit into.

[bodhi]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Don't know, sorry- Grid management is not my thing.

But surely, if you're as involved in foisting these contraptions on us as you claim to be, you'd have an idea of how they affect the National Grid?

[dickymint]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

bodhi said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Don't know, sorry- Grid management is not my thing.

But surely, if you're as involved in foisting these contraptions on us as you claim to be, you'd have an idea of how they affect the National Grid?

No.

And surely I would have said so if I did ?

'foisting these contraptions'? Let me guess where you sit on the broad subject.....


Companies want them. I help enable it. Whats the matter?

PPI springs to mind

[mondeoman]

I know climates change, I dont believe CO2 is a criminal, we need more in the atmosphere, not less.

I like wind turbines for off-grid, I despise them as part of the back-bone of grid supply, I like nukes, but I'm v. angry about the agreed prices for Hinkley Point, its the wrong solution. I'm comfortable with centralised coal, not happy about gas stand-by for wind. Solar is a blind alley for grid in the UK, OK for localised, tidal is too harsh an environment for longevity.

A reasonable question has to be: without subsidies, guaranteed feed in tariffs, paying for shipping wood pellets for Drax, "carbon taxes" etc... what should/would we we paying for gas and electric?

[s2art]

gadgetmac said:

s2art said:

gadgetmac said:

s2art said:

They can, but the term is generic. Mill just means to turn, windmill is to turn something by using wind. Think of a machine shop milling machine. You have confused milling with grinding. So windmill is perfectly correct usage.

I think you'll find 'milling' is a process not "turning something".

No, for example 'a crowd milling around'. Originally the word did mean to grind corn/grain, but the usage changed over time to a more generic turning something.

No it hasn't.

OED: A building with sails or vanes that turn in the wind and generate power to grind corn into flour.

Therefore the word Windmill refers to a wind driven mill...the mill being a tool for use in the process of milling, usually involving corn.

Would you like a picture of one?

There are many ways of milling something not just by means of wind driven mills but that particular process utilises a 'windmill'.

The word windmill has absolutely nothing to do with 'wind' and just 'turning something'.

Wrong. Quote all the other uses of 'mill'.

[LongQ]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Oh - the penny has just dropped....You two are prattling on about the cluster here or there on a Farmers Land?
Onshore Turbines?

Nope.

Nothing that specific.

However if you want to enlighten us about how cheap the Offshore connection costs are and why historically Offshore installations attracted twice the ROC value of Onshore please feel free.

It might be something simple - like the probable output percentage of plated capacity might be twice that of a land based construction ... but the number was more likely to have been dreamed up before anyone acknowledged that, so presumably it was simply because no on would have been tempted to invest without generous assistance.

The point being made previously was simple.

If you generate (or manufacture) on site for direct local consumption you maximise the returns by eliminating additional costs. Which is pretty much what traditional windmills originally did.

Not enough wind? Use a watermill.

No water, use animals.

No animals? do it yourself or via slave labour. Or choose a different diet (in the case of milling crops.)

We are beyond that.

Well beyond it if you read the Finnish Paper or at least the parts of it and observations, made with some input from the original authors of the paper, to which I linked.

[V8 Fettler]

PRTVR said:

Please sir....
There are two types of power requirements for a grid, peak and base load, which does solar and wind generators? fit into.

Neither.

[powerstroke]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

powerstroke said:

Windmills have open blades or sails ,turbines work in a housing ,, giving them a fancy name doesn't
make them better ,they are unreliable ugly and wasteful of the worlds resources ,and green tokenisim
It would be better if we stuck to wind subsidy equpment as a name for them ,

Opinions are like aholes as they say, and thank you for helping me form an opinion on yourself with a view to the subject.

Cearly trolling with an axe to grind- albeit if you miss the grind stone in the same fashion as youve missed the facts, you'll have to watch you don't chop yourself down. As you've no sensible questions or points to make, I think 'Ignore' is for the best.

Yes the point is they work for small scale off grid , otherwise just a waste of time if you want secure constant power !!
you can shout troll and get all pissy but wind farms are ste the sooner the wheels come off this and your wagons the better

[robinessex]

Windy things still no use when the wind stops

[dickymint]

robinessex said:

Windy things still no use when the wind stops

Yeh but getting paid to turn em off when it's too windy more than makes up for that;)

[Phud]

Paddy,

I will ask you again, re your wager,

What part of the WTG are you taking about the complete TOC or just the material wind turbine, since phase II is going on existing rafts and fewer overheads, does it include the connection to the grid or just the blades?

Are you including any of the cost for shore support set up or are you viewing that all as a sunk cost in phase I turbines?

Development costs are these included in your wager or does the fact that the subsidy here mean no?

I am asking because I am interested in taking you up but as of yet its too fluid

[robinessex]

I've just wandered into the garden. The wind velocity is, er, fk all! So let's build lots of 'things' that make use of this often non soursce of energy !!!

[dickymint]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

fantastic contributions as always.
Break time in Primary school clearly

So you think that a comment that relates to the Constraints Payments that in efffect is doubled to the consumer is childish?

Sorry teach I must complain about my bills
Sorry teach I must complain about my bills
Sorry teach I must complain about my bills
Sorry teach I must complain about my bills.........

[robinessex]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

robinessex said:

I've just wandered into the garden. The wind velocity is, er, fk all! So let's build lots of 'things' that make use of this often non soursce of energy !!!

Is your Garden on Dogger Bank, where the wind today is : .............


Oh, and at what Height did you measure the windspeed ?

Ah and lastly, what is the minimum windspeed you need for a Turbine to work generating wind at hub height ?





And you get Upset with being labelled a moron ?

Edited by Paddy_N_Murphy on Monday 27th March 12:20

The flappy things I drove past were on holiday !! Today's wind contribution is 2.2%

England not windy enough, admits wind industry chief

England is not windy enough to justify building any more onshore wind turbines, the chief executive of wind industry trade body has admitted.

Hugh McNeal, who joined RenewableUK two months ago from the Department of Energy and Climate Change, insisted the industry could make the case for more onshore turbines in some parts of the UK, despite the withdrawal of subsidies. But he said this would “almost certainly” not be in England, as the wind speeds were not high enough to make the projects economically viable without subsidy. We are almost certainly not talking about the possibility of new plants in England. The project economics wouldn’t work; the wind speeds don’t allow for it
Although the Government has implemented its manifesto pledge to end SUBSIDIES for new onshore wind farms, the industry believes it should be able to deploy more turbines onshore if it can show that this is the cheapest form of new power generation capacity.

Edited by robinessex on Monday 27th March 12:40

[Mrr T]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

I'm not sure its difficult to understand.
A Project, and Offshore Wind project, will reach FID to build independent of Government subsidy, within 5 Years.

i.e. Commercially viable on its own two feet.

or four feet if a jacket foundation

Will it get the same feed in income as gas, how about the investment in connecting off shore wind to the grid, how about the costs of gas generation for when the wind does not blow?

[robinessex]

Hurricane makes 'largest undeveloped' oil find in UK waters

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-o...

An oil exploration firm has made what it has described as the "largest undeveloped discovery" of oil in UK waters.

Hurricane Energy said one billion barrels of oil could be contained within the Greater Lancaster Area, 60 miles (97km) west of Shetland.
The company hopes to begin production in 2019.
Dr Robert Trice, Hurricane's chief executive officer, described the find as "exciting times".
He said: "This is a highly significant moment for Hurricane.
"We believe that the Greater Lancaster Area is a single hydrocarbon accumulation, making it the largest undeveloped discovery on the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS)."

For PNM. Flappy as in self destruct if you run them to fast !!! Name allocated by my mate, who designs the bloody things !!

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

I'm not sure its difficult to understand.
A Project, and Offshore Wind project, will reach FID to build independent of Government subsidy, within 5 Years.

i.e. Commercially viable on its own two feet.

or four feet if a jacket foundation

Will it get the same feed in income as gas, how about the investment in connecting off shore wind to the grid, how about the costs of gas generation for when the wind does not blow?

Fair points.

Quite understandably there's no expectation that you'd plough back through pages of a thread to see what's been going on, but on Friday in a discussion of costs, I queried how total costs seem to be known when the contributory costs (i.e. subtotals) are not known - or if they are known, then not published openly with detailed working shown.

I also mentioned at about the same time that with P'n'M being an industry insider, they should be able to open the relevant file and type in the current sum for each cost.

Apparently not...that was Friday and we're still waiting. This was it, per UK turbine (onshore or offshore would do or a chicken soup average) given that construction/installation/connection costs are pretty much the only cost spoken of I excluded those:

---

Main issue:

- total lifecycle cost in full

Which is broken down to reveal at least the following:

- maintenance and repair cost

- decommissioning cost

- human health cost from e.g. infrasound onshore and wts

- social cost e.g. of property price falls also for onshore

- rare earth extraction and processing clean-up cost

- environmental cost, the large-scale deaths of birds of prey and bats will do for a start

- stand-by conventional power cost

- baseload cycling cost

- grid reduced reliability cost

[Phud]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

I'm not sure its difficult to understand.
A Project, and Offshore Wind project, will reach FID to build independent of Government subsidy, within 5 Years.

i.e. Commercially viable on its own two feet.

or four feet if a jacket foundation

The area you term subsidy, so do you mean just the building or the running and connection, because as with most things the building is cheap.

When you say independent, do you mean all areas of the project, from initial phases, or just the building of the WTG?
When you say subsidy what are you ruling out? Connection cost, transmission cables, site surveys? You know normal things

[dickymint]

Don't hold your breath TB I'm still waiting for the original bet with the original amount, odds and timescale to be accepted! And he had the cheek to call me a "welcher"

[turbobloke]

dickymint said:

Don't hold your breath TB I'm still waiting for the original bet with the original amount, odds and timescale to be accepted! And he had the cheek to call me a "welcher"

Huh, the cheeky blighter.

In such cases this is needed - for the extended neck which requires polishing before winding in.