Nurses: The NHS is at breaking point
Discussion
Digga said:
jjlynn27 said:
I don't see why would you take last bit 'out'. Do you believe that population is getting healthier?
Gradully, drip, drip, drip, it is being forced onto us, smoking has been pretty successfully demonised, drinking and obesity soon to follow IMHO>I wouldn't even know where to start with tackling obesity, you'll have people up in arms about 'elite' telling them how to live their lives.
s1962a said:
Cheaper than training them in the UK I expect...That seems to be the Aussie way of traning doctors - just get the UK NHS to pay to train them then grab them with a high salary.
nikaiyo2 said:
I think those figures are usually quite deceptive and don't compare like for like. A guy I know who was a director of social services for a major County Council told me that most of the European figures include a lot of spending that we fund outside of the NHS. Nursing homes for instance in France and Germany are "health care" and in those figures, the UK it is LA spending not NHS.
I am sure he told me that France health spending includes the cost of Glasses.
Do you actually believe that American researchers who have been compiling these lists for donkey's years, and are almost universally seen as SME on the subject would miss something as obvious as that? I am sure he told me that France health spending includes the cost of Glasses.
jjlynn27 said:
I wouldn't even know where to start with tackling obesity, you'll have people up in arms about 'elite' telling them how to live their lives.
The NHS does it already, albeit discretely and through the back door; patients in need of operations may be refused them or be delayed receiving them if their health does not predicate a positive outcome.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/02/obese-p...
Derek Smith said:
Murph7355 said:
There is no answer.
There is a simple answer, one that would work for state schools as well:Every MP should be banned from accessing private health care. They'd soon sort it out then.
I'm a massive advocate of MPs being forced to conform to all the circumstances they put the proles under. Their expenses are another one.
Will never happen though.
Digga said:
jjlynn27 said:
I wouldn't even know where to start with tackling obesity, you'll have people up in arms about 'elite' telling them how to live their lives.
The NHS does it already, albeit discretely and through the back door; patients in need of operations may be refused them or be delayed receiving them if their health does not predicate a positive outcome.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/02/obese-p...
RicksAlfas said:
The NHS will always be at breaking point, until the powers that be recognise that it is no longer a sustainable service in this day and age.
It was a wonderful creation, and the envy of the world when it started in the late 1940s, but with the cost of looking after our ever increasing and ageing population, it simply isn't sustainable to keep going in the same way....
This is nonsense.It was a wonderful creation, and the envy of the world when it started in the late 1940s, but with the cost of looking after our ever increasing and ageing population, it simply isn't sustainable to keep going in the same way....
1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
2. By 2010 after reaching ~ 10% of GDP spend on healthcare, the NHS was not at breaking point. there was no huge clamour for more money. Tax and expenditure is a choice for governments.
edh said:
This is nonsense.
1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
We certainly can afford decent 'healthcare'. We just can't afford all the extra, 'nice to haves' etc that people appear to think is their right.1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
edh said:
2. By 2010 after reaching ~ 10% of GDP spend on healthcare, the NHS was not at breaking point. there was no huge clamour for more money. Tax and expenditure is a choice for governments.
Maybe you weren't aware that in 2010 we were overspending by in excess of £100bn, which does not include the hidden borrowing...Edited by sidicks on Friday 13th January 11:04
amgmcqueen said:
That's what two decades of mass uncontrolled immigration does for you....
Unfortunately that is only part of a very complex picture, but adding an extra 640 thousand plus people into the system every year is certainly not going to help. With net immigration at its current level, it is difficult to see how enough new hospitals and the staff to man them each year is going to be provided. It is the `National' Health Service, not the International Health Service.Also the number who need to access the health system is being enlarged by the growing number of aging people in the UK, but they at least have the benefit of having paid into it for 40 plus years via their National Insurance payments.
Another factor is the prices being charged for drugs and equipment by certain suppliers. Much of what is used on a daily basis is necessarily single use equipment, but equipment for which surprisingly high prices are charged just because the NHS is the customer. As for more permanent equipment the sound of cash register going Kerching! is deafening, and if any complaints are made about this, one gets the incredulous `it IS for the NHS you know! retort.
The surprise is that the NHS does as well as it does, but that could be down to most of the people who work in it. It probably needs a ground up re think, but even that alone, is going to be an expensive colossal exercise.
RicksAlfas said:
The NHS will always be at breaking point, until the powers that be recognise that it is no longer a sustainable service in this day and age.
It was a wonderful creation, and the envy of the world when it started in the late 1940s, but with the cost of looking after our ever increasing and ageing population, it simply isn't sustainable to keep going in the same way.
But for many people it's ingrained in their psyche. They just need an NHS. They expect it to be there. Because of this, politicians skirt round the issue as it's a taboo subject, so it will never be sorted out. What was once so great has become a millstone round our neck.
There should be a £10 charge a day to enter a hospital. It can include parking and a cup of tea, but when you enter the hospital as a patient or a visitor it's £10 no matter what.
It was a wonderful creation, and the envy of the world when it started in the late 1940s, but with the cost of looking after our ever increasing and ageing population, it simply isn't sustainable to keep going in the same way.
But for many people it's ingrained in their psyche. They just need an NHS. They expect it to be there. Because of this, politicians skirt round the issue as it's a taboo subject, so it will never be sorted out. What was once so great has become a millstone round our neck.
There should be a £10 charge a day to enter a hospital. It can include parking and a cup of tea, but when you enter the hospital as a patient or a visitor it's £10 no matter what.
I don't believe it's at breaking point, it's just very poorly managed.
voyds9 said:
This. I went to observe them a couple of weeks ago. No one appeared rush, in fact 1 nurse had time to peruse the Avon catalogue, another nurse was typing at a speed that would have made Joey Deacon look like a touch typist.
One admin was pushing a cart round with records on half full, while being followed by a nurse carrying a single record.
As you stated no one was in a rush.
Maybe the promotion of a calm, unruffled atmosphere is a good thing? I try to keep it rather chilled on my unit - constant alarms, people rushing around and continually shouting across the unit is not conducive to a patient's recovery. Additionally patients who are confused, frightened or dying deserve for me and my colleagues to make their stay as restful as possible.One admin was pushing a cart round with records on half full, while being followed by a nurse carrying a single record.
As you stated no one was in a rush.
As to perusing the Avon catalogue - is that any different from the powerfully built posting on PH during office hours.
Touch typing is not a pre-requisite for nursing. And if you knew how poor my Trust's IT system was then Joey Deacon would get frustrated with it.
SD.
sidicks said:
edh said:
This is nonsense.
1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
We certainly can afford decent 'healthcare'. We just can't afford all the extra, 'nice to haves' etc that people appear to think is their right.1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
sidicks said:
edh said:
2. By 2010 after reaching ~ 10% of GDP spend on healthcare, the NHS was not at breaking point. there was no huge clamour for more money. Tax and expenditure is a choice for governments.
Maybe you weren't aware that in 2010 we were overspending by in excess of £100bn, which does not include the hidden borrowing...Edited by sidicks on Friday 13th January 11:04
Governments make choices - this one has chosen to slash local govt funding (blame your local council when services collapse, not us..) As forecast, the effects on social care are now hitting the NHS.
hyphen said:
edh said:
This is nonsense.
1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
1. We have more people in work (being productive and paying tax) in this country than ever before (and a larger population) - why can't we fund heathcare for them?
People being in work doesn't automatically mean they are net contributors financially.
Low wage earner probably paying more in rents than in tax, and we don't tax the rentier economy enough.
What management changes would you make?
I don't believe it's at breaking point, it's just very poorly managed.
REALIST123 said:
RicksAlfas said:
The NHS will always be at breaking point, until the powers that be recognise that it is no longer a sustainable service in this day and age.
It was a wonderful creation, and the envy of the world when it started in the late 1940s, but with the cost of looking after our ever increasing and ageing population, it simply isn't sustainable to keep going in the same way.
But for many people it's ingrained in their psyche. They just need an NHS. They expect it to be there. Because of this, politicians skirt round the issue as it's a taboo subject, so it will never be sorted out. What was once so great has become a millstone round our neck.
There should be a £10 charge a day to enter a hospital. It can include parking and a cup of tea, but when you enter the hospital as a patient or a visitor it's £10 no matter what.
It was a wonderful creation, and the envy of the world when it started in the late 1940s, but with the cost of looking after our ever increasing and ageing population, it simply isn't sustainable to keep going in the same way.
But for many people it's ingrained in their psyche. They just need an NHS. They expect it to be there. Because of this, politicians skirt round the issue as it's a taboo subject, so it will never be sorted out. What was once so great has become a millstone round our neck.
There should be a £10 charge a day to enter a hospital. It can include parking and a cup of tea, but when you enter the hospital as a patient or a visitor it's £10 no matter what.
I don't believe it's at breaking point, it's just very poorly managed.
Lucas CAV said:
What management changes would you make?
Talking to people I know who work in the NHS (as in, actually do a job on the frontline), get rid of a few. I am told, a good number would not be missed and, moreover, would actually increase efficiency by the lack of their meddling.Digga said:
Lucas CAV said:
What management changes would you make?
Talking to people I know who work in the NHS (as in, actually do a job on the frontline), get rid of a few. I am told, a good number would not be missed and, moreover, would actually increase efficiency by the lack of their meddling.For A&E, the problems seem to be twofold - at the entry point, you have patients wanting instant medical appointments, not wanting to wait for GPs, so the simple answer is to provide that service alongside A&E, so Emergencies go one way and general medical help goes another. Even eminent GPs don't quite get it - the one on Today this morning agreed with the point, but said that the pressure on GPs was just as great as they deal with 8 out of 9 medical appointments. He clearly didn't understand that a movement of 10% of patients from GPs to A&E would be roughly a doubling at A&E.
At the other end, there is clearly a blockage in discharging people due to a lack of social care provision, so we need to build up the Cottage Hospital network again as a halfway house to care at home, thereby releasing capacity within main hospitals.
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