Stop Violence on NHS Staff: Sign the petition Now

[snuffy]

AMG Merc said:

It's considered a a higher level serious offence to assault Medics, Police and Firemen (Fire people!) in many other countries - but not here. Here its just assault.

Assaulting a Police Officer is a separate, specific offence in this country. So in fact, yes, it is here as well.

[C0ffin D0dger]

The upshot is this simply shouldn't be happening anyway, under no circumstances should anyone ever feel the need to assault a health care professional. I guess having stiffer penalties for doing so may put somebody off but what this is actually indicative of it just how bad a state the NHS is in. I don't know the figures but I'm guessing a lot of these attacks are purely out of frustration / people at the end of their tether with the service they are receiving. Improve that and things may change.

The mental health care one is interesting though, my wife has worked for the NHS in both a secure unit (i.e. prisoners with mental health issues) and at a clinic with children. At the secure unit I expect a lot more safeguarding is already in place to protect the staff from attacks and they can happen. She did talk to me about a few occasions at the clinic where kids have kicked off, it's because they're mentally ill and potentially being put under a lot of stress due to the therapy or analysis that's being done. It's rarely attacks directly on staff, maybe a few chairs being thrown around etc. but what if someone does accidently end up in the firing line? Technically it is assault but I'm not necessarily sure the staff would want it pursed as such?

[paulrockliffe]

GroundEffect said:

paulrockliffe said:

jjlynn27 said:

A couple of months ago, while waiting for a friend doc to finish his handover I've witnessed a physical attack on mental health nurse by a patient. Luckily, two porters (I believe that that's what they were) managed to restrain her. Nurse straightened her uniform, sorted out her hair and just went to pick another patient, in a manner that would indicate that it's not the first time that she was facing that situation.

So an assault took place, there were at least four witnesses and no one reported it to the Police? That's the starting point right there.

And what are the police going to do against someone who is mentally incapable?

Well if the answer is nothing now, it's going to be nothing if there's a new law. So what exactly is the purpose of this anecdote?

If there are assaults talking place in heavily camera'd busy public places that aren't resulting in punishment it is not because the law is inadequate.

[Einion Yrth]

jjlynn27 said:

GroundEffect said:

Well aren't you a fking idiot.

Think that if you listen carefully you'll hear the wooshing sound above.

Oh, the sarcasm was evident. I agree with GroundEffect on this one, nonetheless.

[AMG Merc]

Well, thanks to all who voted, we got to stage 2.

On today's BBC 1pm news an MP tabled a motion and one of May's boys now has to look into it. OK, may not go anywhere but at least it now has some traction.

Despite all the sht commented on about UK Gov here and elsewhere, what a country this is - try getting heard in say Dubai or Moscow and see what happens.

To those commenting that asault law already exists protecting NHS staff. I agree - it could be the judges that are failing on the cases brought before them but does it really hurt to sometimes use citizen power to drive something rather than just relying on what exists.

[XCP]

snuffy said:

AMG Merc said:

It's considered a a higher level serious offence to assault Medics, Police and Firemen (Fire people!) in many other countries - but not here. Here its just assault.

Assaulting a Police Officer is a separate, specific offence in this country. So in fact, yes, it is here as well.

'Assaulting a police officer' is a lower level offence ( summary) than ABH. CPS will charge Assault Police where an officer is the victim as so as to avoid the possibility of a Not guilty trial at Crown Court, with all the associated expense/ time wasting.
The fact that there is a separate specific offence of assaulting an officer in the execution of their duty provides absolutely zilch in the way of protection for those officers. I cannot see how it will be any different for healthcare professionals. The tools are already available to charge people who assault them now, with their occupation being ( rightly) an aggravating factor .

Petition not signed.

[rxe]

As others have said, assault is assault, regardless of who the person being assaulted works for.

The bigger problem is the people who the NHS interacts with are probably more likely to commit assault. Injured drunk people, people with mental health issues, people with medical conditions that alter their outlook on life.

Having sat in A&E on a Saturday night watching the violent weirdos, my only suggestion is capital punishment, but we're not allowed to do that. Petitions and new laws won't stop this, almost by definition the perpetrators are beyond reason.

[anonymous-user]

My mate is a snr A&E nurse, and is about 5 ft tall and a size 0, about as far removed from powerfully built as you can get. When she first started she would regularly get thumped by drunk, high or generally despicable people and due to the very nature of A&E its almost impossible to stop.

Despite having two burly security guards on site, there was often a time gap between my mate getting punched and them rocking up to save the day, so after a bruising encounter one day, she met a new Israeli Consultant, she explained what happened and he suggested he ran some krav Maga classes after shift.

As she says now, she has the confidence and skills to deal with violent patients and can either evade or hit them back much harder.

[Bigends]

Specific offences of injury assaults on Police are being introduced in April this year - at present the only assault Police classification is for non injury - then the standard ABH/GBH classification is used. These new offences will capture injury assaults - more for stats purposes that anything else I believe

[shed driver]

As a nurse with over 30 years practice I have been on the receiving end of more punches, face fulls' of phlegm and size 9 boots than I care to remember. Sadly, despite all the zero tolerance platitudes I have only had one person who assaulted me actually successfully prosecuted.

What I and my colleagues would like to see is for the zero tolerance campaign to actually mean something. If I am punched by a patient with dementia in hospital nothing happens - if I was in aisle 16 at Tesco and the same thing happened then there would be a higher chance of action being taken. It will still probably result in no action being taken, but my employer will have to act to ensure my safety along with that of my colleagues, other patients and visitors.

I don't expect little granny Ethel to be criminalized, but having a warning flag as well as extra resources to help deal with her can make a world of difference.

SD.

[IroningMan]

shed driver said:

As a nurse with over 30 years practice I have been on the receiving end of more punches, face fulls' of phlegm and size 9 boots than I care to remember. Sadly, despite all the zero tolerance platitudes I have only had one person who assaulted me actually successfully prosecuted.

What I and my colleagues would like to see is for the zero tolerance campaign to actually mean something. If I am punched by a patient with dementia in hospital nothing happens - if I was in aisle 16 at Tesco and the same thing happened then there would be a higher chance of action being taken. It will still probably result in no action being taken, but my employer will have to act to ensure my safety along with that of my colleagues, other patients and visitors.

I don't expect little granny Ethel to be criminalized, but having a warning flag as well as extra resources to help deal with her can make a world of difference.

SD.

Quite. It's about your employer's duty of care to protect you from the people with whom your employment puts you in contact.

[AMG Merc]

I shouldn't be surprised by some of the views shared here anymore Anyhow, I don't think your support is needed now as the target was achieved, many thanks for reading anyway

[Astacus]

You shouldn't be surprised, because the views I imagine you are objecting to are well thought out and logical. There is no need for new laws. There is only the need for those we have to be used. The issue seems to be that assaults on staff are not, despite assertions to the contrary, taken seriously. That is what has to change. There is far too much laxity with regard to assault in general in this country.

[XCP]

Astacus said:

You shouldn't be surprised, because the views I imagine you are objecting to are well thought out and logical. There is no need for new laws. There is only the need for those we have to be used. The issue seems to be that assaults on staff are not, despite assertions to the contrary, taken seriously. That is what has to change. There is far too much laxity with regard to assault in general in this country.

I agree totally.

[texaxile]

Astacus said:

You shouldn't be surprised, because the views I imagine you are objecting to are well thought out and logical. There is no need for new laws. There is only the need for those we have to be used. The issue seems to be that assaults on staff are not, despite assertions to the contrary, taken seriously. That is what has to change. There is far too much laxity with regard to assault in general in this country.

I totally agree and perhaps some punishments which deter such behaviour wouldn't go amiss either.

[jjlynn27]

Astacus said:

You shouldn't be surprised, because the views I imagine you are objecting to are well thought out and logical. There is no need for new laws. There is only the need for those we have to be used. The issue seems to be that assaults on staff are not, despite assertions to the contrary, taken seriously. That is what has to change. There is far too much laxity with regard to assault in general in this country.

I doubt that anyone is actually surprised by anything anymore on NP&E. If the new law is passed and if it makes the staff that has to deal with scum on a daily basis feel better and more appreciated, what is the downside?

At any rate, thanks to normal people the threshold was reached, so thanks to op for posting the link.

[anonymous-user]

shed driver said:

As a nurse with over 30 years practice I have been on the receiving end of more punches, face fulls' of phlegm and size 9 boots than I care to remember. Sadly, despite all the zero tolerance platitudes I have only had one person who assaulted me actually successfully prosecuted.

What I and my colleagues would like to see is for the zero tolerance campaign to actually mean something...

I don't understand. You get assaulted. You call the police. They don't turn up? Refuse to arrest? CPS refuse to prosecute?

[Astacus]

fblm said:

I don't understand. You get assaulted. You call the police. They don't turn up? Refuse to arrest? CPS refuse to prosecute?

More likely is: you get assaulted, you report it to your manager, your manager thinks its just one of those things...

Or You get assaulted, you report it to your manager, your manager "doesn't want to get involved"

[Astacus]

jjlynn27 said:

I doubt that anyone is actually surprised by anything anymore on NP&E. If the new law is passed and if it makes the staff that has to deal with scum on a daily basis feel better and more appreciated, what is the downside?

At any rate, thanks to normal people the threshold was reached, so thanks to op for posting the link.

Well, I think the downside is the utter waste of parliamentary time that could be taken up passing new laws that actually have some use, for a start

[shed driver]

fblm said:

shed driver said:

As a nurse with over 30 years practice I have been on the receiving end of more punches, face fulls' of phlegm and size 9 boots than I care to remember. Sadly, despite all the zero tolerance platitudes I have only had one person who assaulted me actually successfully prosecuted.

What I and my colleagues would like to see is for the zero tolerance campaign to actually mean something...

I don't understand. You get assaulted. You call the police. They don't turn up? Refuse to arrest? CPS refuse to prosecute?

There are several reasons behind this. There is a widespread feeling of acceptance, expecting that the confused, the drunk and the plain nasty will hit out either verbally or physically. Also knowing that despite using the hospital's reporting system, I will still have to look after that person the next day.

Some patients with severe cognitive problems such as dementia, brain injuries will hit out - it's the only thing they can do when they feel that someone is doing something towards them that they object to. Imagine lying in bed, very confused, scared etc and two people come up to you, mutter something about "cleaning you up" and then proceed to pull your pajamas down and start to wash you. Bad enough if you know what' happening, terrifying if you are unable to understand what they are saying due to a massive stroke.

There is also a reluctance by some clinicians to involve the police when that may impact upon someone's recovery. Detoxing alcoholics may refuse to engage any further with services if they are subject to police involvement - any chance of rehabilitation is then lost.

When I am with students and the question of violence and aggression arises - it's actually part of the current nursing degree syllabus - I always encourage them to report any incident. I jokingly call it the "Tesco Test". If it happened in Tesco to an employee what would happen? How is hospital different?

A lot of relatives cannot believe that their sweet little granny can also be a violent, evil foul mouthed harridan - it's not a great conversation to have explaining that the two burly security guards are sat by her bed to protect the staff, or that the police have had to be called to restrain her after she bit a chunk out of a junior nurse hand. (True story)

There's no one size fits all answer. Maybe report every single incident, push for prosecution in every case and let the CPS decide? Kick out every patient that calls me names or lashes out? Or just accept that this happens, but whatever it is, maybe a few exemplary sentences may deter some.

SD.