Article 50 ruling due now
Discussion
SilverSixer said:
Then I wasn't talking to you, was I smart arse...
Triggered! Nerve touched by reality!! The entertainment goes on!!!
Back on topic anyone - the UK is leaving the EU and there's lots to discuss as well as so many reasons to be cheerful
ETA good stuff prand you mentioned Article 50 content, on-topic!
Piersman2 said:
SilverSixer said:
turbobloke said:
SilverSixer said:
FN2TypeR said:
White Paper states that the UK Parliament was sovereign throughout the UK's EU membership, but didn't *feel* like that sometimes.Well.
How does that make you feel if you voted Leave in order to take back sovereignty?
Good job we had a chance to vote on things before that sovereignty was further eroded to beyond the point where we had no choice.
ETA: I must read the white paper soon if that's the best point of contention you could glean from it.
Edited by Piersman2 on Thursday 2nd February 14:10
Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
gifdy said:
Article 50 will happen, the question is what happens next.
The government want to go into the negotiations with a free hand then come back with a take it or leave it vote in Parliament. They know there will be massive pressure not to vote against because the alternative would be seen as worse for the country...so they expect whatever deal is struck to be waved through.
The others, mostly labour but some Tories, want to be able to have a vote earlier in the process and send the government back to the negotiating table if they don't like what they see, or even call the whole thing off. The problem with this is that it puts the government in a terrible negotiating position before they go in. The EU will have no motivation to propose a reasonable deal as they know a terrible deal will be voted down in Parliament and the exit could be scuppered.
What should happen, and I know it won't, would be for the government to assemble a cross-party negotiating team from representatives across the parties who negotiate behind closed doors. This would give the country the strongest position to get the best deal, and have the best chance of it being accepted across Parliament and the country.
I'm a realist though. There is no chance our Politicians can put party politics to one side for the good of the country at this important point in our history. Shame.
Not quite how I see it. Once Art50 is triggered we're on a 2 year timeline. Both side will spend the first year throwing sThe government want to go into the negotiations with a free hand then come back with a take it or leave it vote in Parliament. They know there will be massive pressure not to vote against because the alternative would be seen as worse for the country...so they expect whatever deal is struck to be waved through.
The others, mostly labour but some Tories, want to be able to have a vote earlier in the process and send the government back to the negotiating table if they don't like what they see, or even call the whole thing off. The problem with this is that it puts the government in a terrible negotiating position before they go in. The EU will have no motivation to propose a reasonable deal as they know a terrible deal will be voted down in Parliament and the exit could be scuppered.
What should happen, and I know it won't, would be for the government to assemble a cross-party negotiating team from representatives across the parties who negotiate behind closed doors. This would give the country the strongest position to get the best deal, and have the best chance of it being accepted across Parliament and the country.
I'm a realist though. There is no chance our Politicians can put party politics to one side for the good of the country at this important point in our history. Shame.
te at each other and name calling, then it'll start to get serious and there'll be a years worth of proper grown up deals being sorted out. Only after this will the parliament actually have anything worthwhile to vote on. And if they refuse to ratify it, we're out the door anyways onto WTO terms.This assumes we can even come to an agreement with the EU, if not it's either agree an extension or WTO in 2 years.
SilverSixer said:
You say "well, duh", I know "well, duh", and yet many people voted Leave on the false argument of restoring sovereignty, as promoted by the Leave campaigns. I'm wondering how those people feel now. If that doesn't apply to you, then you can join turbobloke.
Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
I'm starting to lose the thread where you're going with this, however, most people's understanding of 'sovereignty' with regards to the EU was where decisions were being made, and where they were increasingly likely to be made with more powers and influence being handed over to the EU. You can play with the legal definitons and reality of the term 'sovereignty' as much as you like, it still comes down to the people wanting their own directly elected parliament making the rules we live by and that parliament being directly accountable via the ballet box if they step over the mark. It's called democracy.Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
Piersman2 said:
I'm starting to lose the thread where you're going with this, however, most people's understanding of 'sovereignty' with regards to the EU was where decisions were being made, and where they were increasingly likely to be made with more powers and influence being handed over to the EU. You can play with the legal definitons and reality of the term 'sovereignty' as much as you like, it still comes down to the people wanting their own directly elected parliament making the rules we live by and that parliament being directly accountable via the ballet box if they step over the mark. It's called democracy.
/\ this Piersman2 said:
SilverSixer said:
You say "well, duh", I know "well, duh", and yet many people voted Leave on the false argument of restoring sovereignty, as promoted by the Leave campaigns. I'm wondering how those people feel now. If that doesn't apply to you, then you can join turbobloke.
Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
I'm starting to lose the thread where you're going with this, however, most people's understanding of 'sovereignty' with regards to the EU was where decisions were being made, and where they were increasingly likely to be made with more powers and influence being handed over to the EU. You can play with the legal definitons and reality of the term 'sovereignty' as much as you like, it still comes down to the people wanting their own directly elected parliament making the rules we live by and that parliament being directly accountable via the ballet box if they step over the mark. It's called democracy.Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
The point is, as stated in David Davis's White paper today, that we always had sovereignty and hadn't lost it to the EU, and there's no good reason to believe that was ever going to change, despite incorrect Leave claims of some plot to take us in to the ever closer union which the others may pursue, having an opt out from it and all that.
You know this, surely? You knew this in June last year, surely? You may have had other reasons to vote Leave (if you did, I don't know you), and that's fine, but this (sovereignty) isn't and never was a valid reason to vote Leave, and even David Davis says so now.
The people always had their own directly accountable parliament via the ballet (sic) box, as is self-evident from the current situation. If we'd lost sovereignty to the EU, we wouldn't be leaving it.
(Sorry about the ballet box thing, just struck me as a very amusing typo.)
SilverSixer said:
Piersman2 said:
SilverSixer said:
You say "well, duh", I know "well, duh", and yet many people voted Leave on the false argument of restoring sovereignty, as promoted by the Leave campaigns. I'm wondering how those people feel now. If that doesn't apply to you, then you can join turbobloke.
Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
I'm starting to lose the thread where you're going with this, however, most people's understanding of 'sovereignty' with regards to the EU was where decisions were being made, and where they were increasingly likely to be made with more powers and influence being handed over to the EU. You can play with the legal definitons and reality of the term 'sovereignty' as much as you like, it still comes down to the people wanting their own directly elected parliament making the rules we live by and that parliament being directly accountable via the ballet box if they step over the mark. It's called democracy.Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
The point is, as stated in David Davis's White paper today, that we always had sovereignty and hadn't lost it to the EU, and there's no good reason to believe that was ever going to change, despite incorrect Leave claims of some plot to take us in to the ever closer union which the others may pursue, having an opt out from it and all that.
You know this, surely? You knew this in June last year, surely? You may have had other reasons to vote Leave (if you did, I don't know you), and that's fine, but this (sovereignty) isn't and never was a valid reason to vote Leave, and even David Davis says so now.
The people always had their own directly accountable parliament via the ballet (sic) box, as is self-evident from the current situation. If we'd lost sovereignty to the EU, we wouldn't be leaving it.
(Sorry about the ballet box thing, just struck me as a very amusing typo.)
The EU can f
k itself.danllama said:
SilverSixer said:
Piersman2 said:
SilverSixer said:
You say "well, duh", I know "well, duh", and yet many people voted Leave on the false argument of restoring sovereignty, as promoted by the Leave campaigns. I'm wondering how those people feel now. If that doesn't apply to you, then you can join turbobloke.
Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
I'm starting to lose the thread where you're going with this, however, most people's understanding of 'sovereignty' with regards to the EU was where decisions were being made, and where they were increasingly likely to be made with more powers and influence being handed over to the EU. You can play with the legal definitons and reality of the term 'sovereignty' as much as you like, it still comes down to the people wanting their own directly elected parliament making the rules we live by and that parliament being directly accountable via the ballet box if they step over the mark. It's called democracy.Obviously "feelings" are so very important to Leaver snowflakes like David Davis. We're making huge constitutional upheaval on the basis of some misplaced "feelings". It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.
The point is, as stated in David Davis's White paper today, that we always had sovereignty and hadn't lost it to the EU, and there's no good reason to believe that was ever going to change, despite incorrect Leave claims of some plot to take us in to the ever closer union which the others may pursue, having an opt out from it and all that.
You know this, surely? You knew this in June last year, surely? You may have had other reasons to vote Leave (if you did, I don't know you), and that's fine, but this (sovereignty) isn't and never was a valid reason to vote Leave, and even David Davis says so now.
The people always had their own directly accountable parliament via the ballet (sic) box, as is self-evident from the current situation. If we'd lost sovereignty to the EU, we wouldn't be leaving it.
(Sorry about the ballet box thing, just struck me as a very amusing typo.)
The EU can f
k itself.WinstonWolf said:
SilverSixer said:
Oakey said:
You can almost feel the vitriol radiating through your monitor
That comment says more about you than it does about me.Deptford Draylons said:
Oh no, Silver has found another reason Brexit was a con job, along with the big red bus.
No no, you misunderstand as usual. I always knew the sovereignty argument was a lie. And, in fact, "Let'stake back control" was in the smaller print near the sills of the Big Red Bus, just under the £350m lie. It's edifying now to have David Davis admit the lie openly, and I'm wondering how that makes people who voted on that basis feel.Are you one of those defrauded Leave voters?
SilverSixer said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Oh no, Silver has found another reason Brexit was a con job, along with the big red bus.
No no, you misunderstand as usual. I always knew the sovereignty argument was a lie. And, in fact, "Let'stake back control" was in the smaller print near the sills of the Big Red Bus, just under the £350m lie. It's edifying now to have David Davis admit the lie openly, and I'm wondering how that makes people who voted on that basis feel.Are you one of those defrauded Leave voters?
You're currently at stage 5, it'll pass.
HTH.
SilverSixer said:
You may have had other reasons to vote Leave (if you did, I don't know you), and that's fine, but this (sovereignty) isn't and never was a valid reason to vote Leave, and even David Davis says so now.
People use the word sovereignty to mean slightly different things. Whether that's right or wrong is not the point of the argument. You have to be fairly sad to argue something as important as this on the exact definition of a word.Let me quote something else from the white paper:
Whitepaper said:
The Government’s general approach to preserving EU law is to ensure that all EU laws which are directly applicable in the UK (such as EU regulations) and all laws which have been made in the UK, in order to implement our obligations as a member of the EU, remain part of domestic law on the day we leave the EU.
EU regulations are directly applicable in the UK without going through UK parliament. This is what people mean by sovereignty. Some people recently took the government to court for thinking it could bypass parliament. Other people voted leave because the EU was repeatedly creating EU regulations which bypassed our parliament.SilverSixer said:
Then I wasn't talking to you, was I smart arse, as I was addressing people who had voted Leave on the basis of "restoring sovereignty". If your reason was even weaker and less well thought out than that, I can't help you.
If Parliament hadn't been Sovereign then there would have been no point in a referendum as we couldn't have left. Parliament always had the right to vote to leave the EU (with or without a referendum) or declare War on all EU members if it so desired. I'm not sure anyone ever denied that.The issue, which the White Paper makes clear, was that it was completely "all or nothing". Whilst a member, Parliament does not/did not have any influence over a great chunk of legislation.
So, yes, technically and legally Parliament was still Sovereign in that it could have voted to Nuke France which would have probably ended some of the EU laws coming it's way but in practice on a day-to-day basis it didn't have control over a lot of things.
The White Paper seems to say that.
SilverSixer said:
Deptford Draylons said:
Oh no, Silver has found another reason Brexit was a con job, along with the big red bus.
No no, you misunderstand as usual. I always knew the sovereignty argument was a lie. And, in fact, "Let'stake back control" was in the smaller print near the sills of the Big Red Bus, just under the £350m lie. It's edifying now to have David Davis admit the lie openly, and I'm wondering how that makes people who voted on that basis feel.Are you one of those defrauded Leave voters?
2. Taking control of our own laws – We will take control of our own statute book and bring
an end to the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union in the UK.
No one who voted leave has been defrauded, if anything many remain voters are the ones who were defrauded by Project Fear, the majority of the threats made pre the referendum have been shown to be lies.
Carry on making the jam or chutney.
alock said:
SilverSixer said:
You may have had other reasons to vote Leave (if you did, I don't know you), and that's fine, but this (sovereignty) isn't and never was a valid reason to vote Leave, and even David Davis says so now.
People use the word sovereignty to mean slightly different things. Whether that's right or wrong is not the point of the argument. You have to be fairly sad to argue something as important as this on the exact definition of a word.Let me quote something else from the white paper:
Whitepaper said:
The Government’s general approach to preserving EU law is to ensure that all EU laws which are directly applicable in the UK (such as EU regulations) and all laws which have been made in the UK, in order to implement our obligations as a member of the EU, remain part of domestic law on the day we leave the EU.
EU regulations are directly applicable in the UK without going through UK parliament. This is what people mean by sovereignty. Some people recently took the government to court for thinking it could bypass parliament. Other people voted leave because the EU was repeatedly creating EU regulations which bypassed our parliament.SilverSixer said:
White Paper states that the UK Parliament was sovereign throughout the UK's EU membership, but didn't *feel* like that sometimes.
Well.
How does that make you feel if you voted Leave in order to take back sovereignty? Like you're either monumentally thick, ignorant or utterly stitched up seem to be the options. Take your pick.
Well.
How does that make you feel if you voted Leave in order to take back sovereignty? Like you're either monumentally thick, ignorant or utterly stitched up seem to be the options. Take your pick.
wiki said:
Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies
Did the UK government have that full right and power without interference from the EU? Of course not.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff