BLAIR, his latest intervention. Should he shut up ?

BLAIR, his latest intervention. Should he shut up ?

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Mr GrimNasty

8,172 posts

169 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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El stovey said:
mybrainhurts said:
Jimboka said:
Blair was unfairly tarred by Daily Mail today. His rebuttal shows up the lies & absolute rubbish that the DM print. Glad they had to reluctantly apologise..
What did they say?
I think Blair said the Mail accused his government of paying the terrorist compensation, when it was apparently the conservatives, Blair also commented that the Mail were actually leading the campaign to have the bloke released and highlighting the 'injustice' in the first place.
You should read the Mail's robust and accurate answer.

Blair is as ever a mendacious worm. He knows full well it was his actions and Jack 'no illegal rendition or information from torture' Straw that created the whole situation and made it impossible not to pay compensation - because the information that proved that in all likelihood he was a terrorist was not admissible in the compensation case, and the fact that he had been treated illegally by Britain regardless of guilt - the Conservatives have since made legal changes to hopefully prevent a similar situation recurring.

The DM never said the terrorist was innocent, they supported the closure/end of the inhumane practices at Guantanamo Bay - an entirely different thing.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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MarshPhantom said:
Seemed pretty clear the Lib Dems couldn't get anything done without Tory approval.
How do you think the Tories got anything done? Quid pro quo.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
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Just been watching Tony Blair prattling on about Martin McGuinness and how Blair was so involved in everything good in Northern Ireland (!).......

But where had the skills of the orator gone, he seemed to struggle with his words as if he had some ailment.

Edited by Robertj21a on Tuesday 21st March 20:17

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
Just been watching Tony Blair prattling on about Martin McGuinness and how Blair was so involved in everything good in Northern Ireland (!).......

But were had the skills of the orator gone, he seemed to struggle with his words as if he had some ailment.
MO Mowlam ? Whose that ?
Oh That Mo Mowlam

Airbrushed from history

mybrainhurts

90,809 posts

254 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
quotequote all
techiedave said:
Robertj21a said:
Just been watching Tony Blair prattling on about Martin McGuinness and how Blair was so involved in everything good in Northern Ireland (!).......

But were had the skills of the orator gone, he seemed to struggle with his words as if he had some ailment.
MO Mowlam ? Whose that ?
Oh That Mo Mowlam

Airbrushed from history
Another conquest of yours? Blimey, does Diane know?

s3fella

10,524 posts

186 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
Just been watching Tony Blair prattling on about Martin McGuinness and how Blair was so involved in everything good in Northern Ireland (!).......

But where had the skills of the orator gone, he seemed to struggle with his words as if he had some ailment.

Edited by Robertj21a on Tuesday 21st March 20:17
We can but hope.

Although he has been suffering with itis for many years

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
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SKP555 said:
1. It was a straight binary choice and 48% is less than 52%. How can you "consider" the views of the 48% while abiding by the result of the referendum?
Sorry I tend to agree with most of your postings but this is a very salient point in the current climate.

A vote such as Brexit can fundamentally be interpreted 2 ways. Way 1 says its a binary decision between straightforward options regardless of the numbers a majority one way or the other gets to flick the switch to that decision (without actually knowing what the decision constituted other than a directive to trigger article 50 and formally leave the EU to some other at that time unknown arrangement). Way 2 says the result represents the collective wisdom or will of the British people in weighing up all the arguments and pros and cons of either keeping the status quo or not. The problem I have with the referendum is it attempted to represent an enormously complex issue with a straightforward binary decision to either do nothing or take a leap into the unquantified, neither option was frankly a good one in the way it was presented to the British people. I don't mind stating that I was and still am pro Brexit but have to admit it was an extremely close run question in my mind, a couple of other people I know whom have also revealed that they voted that way also weighed up their decision with a similar narrowly tipped balance. In this regard the 52/48 split is remarkably close to how I concluded the decision on how to vote, it was a very narrow thing in my mind. Frankly I find it hard to believe people who seem intelligent and yet claim to be rational can state with certainty that the only correct decision was 100% one way or the other. In this regard my own position is not being represented at all at the moment as we are still caught in a whirlwind of tribal shouting from the tiny number of people at each end of the spectrum, this also means of course that I have far more in common with people who voted remain but weighed things up to be say 52/48 the other way. This is the problem with simplistic binary decisions, they are always hugely divisive and frankly a really st way to determine the future direction of a country.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
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NJH - I do fully understand your position.

I'm sure you'll agree, that when the outcome of either side of the vote is outwith the unilateral control of the UK Government, it's impossible to do anything more than ask the binary question where each option leaves a lot of uncertain outcomes.

The rhetoric is being dialled down by both sides. The EU negotiators are talking about FS provisions and potential free trade, as are our ministers.

This is supported by big business, a lot of whom are 'releasing' their contingency plans and thoughts to the press to try and influence the outcomes of those negotiations.

There will be some sticking points, however it's not the politicians that will resolve them, it's the civil services. That's what they're there for. Collectively, they don't like rapid change, and so it's very likely the overall outcome will be acceptable to the middle ground on either side of the vote than the vocal outliers in my opinion.

SKP555

1,114 posts

125 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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NJH
I agree it represents a complex set of choices either way but the question was ultimately binary and simple. Leave or Remain in the EU. Whatever the final result of the negotiations it can not possibly mean remaining in. That decision inescapably means we must negotiate everything again. It is beyond the power of the British government to leave the EU while retaining Single Market access or anything else without the agreement of other members. There's no default half way option.

At risk of using a politicians cliche the negotiations should be for 100% of the country. Now the decision to leave is made the break down of who voted for what is no longer relevant and it can't be assumed that the 48% all now want some sort of associate membership.

Any rational appraisal of our current situation would take account of the fact that a massive amount of our trade, legal system and much else is intertwined with the EU. I think even the most hardline Brexiteer (which might be me) would recognise this and that chopping it all off one day would be destructive.

So the question becomes how do we approach the negotiations.

There's no definitive right or wrong approach. However I can well see that starting from the position of saying we will survive and prosper even without a special deal gives us a much stronger position than saying that we will stay in the single market at nearly any cost. Cameron already tried this negotiating strategy and the "reforms" he secured were hopeless.

SKP555

1,114 posts

125 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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Just to add
There have been opportunities to address this in a much better way over the decades of our membership.

Heath dishonestly claiming it was merely a trade deal. The one sided poll in 1975. The bullying over Maastricht. The Lisbon Treaty, copied and pasted from the constitution that voters in several countries rejected. And Cameron's obviously hollow reforms.

At any of these points, or indeed at any other point of their choosing, any British government since 1970 could have made an honest and constructive attempt to form a better relationship with the EU, outside the political union which the British people have never had any desire for.

Instead they lied and manipulated and threatened people, hoping it would all go away and even telling us it would all go away once the grouchy old duffers died off and generation Euro came through.

That's not to say we should seek to make Brexit harder or more chaotic than it need be as some sort of punishment against those who brought this about.

Rather that our old relationship with the EU was a fraud and must be thrown out in its entirety before a new one can be made.

Starting from a blank sheet with the assumption that no deal is a perfectly acceptable outcome is absolutely the only way we can ever achieve this IMO.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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This thread is supposed to be about Blair. Aren't there enough other general Brexit threads already ?

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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.

B'stard Child

28,320 posts

245 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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Mothersruin said:


.
+1

Even if it a "pot are to - shop"

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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Robertj21a said:
This thread is supposed to be about Blair. Aren't there enough other general Brexit threads already ?
In a sense it is still very much about Blair. He gave a surprisingly good interview at the weekend on the Marr show I felt, pretty much elaborating on many of the points us so called Brexiteers have been stating in the posts above. Blair himself is clever enough (unlike fools like Clegg) to dial back on the remoaning rhetoric to re-run the referendum, he has correctly identified that a way back in is only going to happen if the conditions change from the EU side. This means substantial EU reform. Anything less would just be a re-run of the same arguments. He is clearly trying to appeal to guys like me who have never taken an extreme position on the EU question (probably the vast majority of the electorate). Its also patently clear that the left of British politics badly needs to reinvent itself, Corbyn's cronies have been very disappointing as all they have managed to do thus far is create the over-riding impression that 1) they are incompetent, 2) want to turn the clock back to the 70s. Whether one is left wing or not this country badly needs a robust opposition for our democracy to function well, and it will only be robust when the left is genuinely re-invigorated.

I have found it hard for a long time now to do anything but despise Blair but I have to hand it to him, he is a proper pro at the political game compared to the amateurs and fools trying to play for the left or left of centre recently. Also given the points I make above I have to swallow hard on that hatred of the man and hope that his institute thing bears fruit in terms of policies and strategy that does genuinely re-invigorate the left, and hopefully also help elucidate ways in which a post Brexit Britain works well for everyone.

s3fella

10,524 posts

186 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
This thread is supposed to be about Blair. Aren't there enough other general Brexit threads already ?
Let's get it back on track.
Tony, off you ing .

Tony427

2,873 posts

232 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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NJH said:
stuff ending on ...... hopefully also help elucidate ways in which a post Brexit Britain works well for everyone.
The only thing Tony Blair is interested in is how well a "Post Brexit Britain works for Blair".

Odious man.






markcoznottz

7,155 posts

223 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Decided at some point he 'deserved' to hang with the filthy rich, and has developed the attitude to match.

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
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Its the messiah complex.

No mystery about that either, he demonstrated it perfectly with his infamous and hilariously ironic 'hand of history' soundbite.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
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I would expect him to score highly on the Psychopath spectrum, he shows all the signs associated with that mental disorder.

Tom Logan

3,191 posts

124 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
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jsf said:
I would expect him to score highly on the Psychopath spectrum, he shows all the signs associated with that mental disorder.
Having seen him speaking on tv the other day he seems to have some of the symptoms of early onset dementia.