Smart Meters ITV Tonight
Discussion
Jokes aside, I suspect a lot of people showing interest in the uptake of things like this are younger people who don't recall what "it used to be like".
Those of us that remember water rates, drive as many miles a year as you like, how you like, tarrifs the complexity of which was limited to the economy 7 switch, not having tracebale mobile phones and facebook checking us in at places all the time, so everyone knows are business are far more suspicious.
Truth is, the "liberty" of no f
ker knowing what we are up to is long since gone. And only us that remember the "old days" can see what we have collectively lost. Sad, but true.
Those of us that remember water rates, drive as many miles a year as you like, how you like, tarrifs the complexity of which was limited to the economy 7 switch, not having tracebale mobile phones and facebook checking us in at places all the time, so everyone knows are business are far more suspicious.
Truth is, the "liberty" of no f
ker knowing what we are up to is long since gone. And only us that remember the "old days" can see what we have collectively lost. Sad, but true.0000 said:
R8Steve said:
I have cujo protecting anything connected to my network so i'm more that comfortable that i'm adequately protected.
You sound even more confident than they are in their closed-source subscription black box.rxe said:
Either you don't understand what a firewall is, or you have something that is capable of doing proper inspection and three shifts of security admins to take action on alerts.
The problem is not the smart meter interfering with your home network, as others have said, it is a mobile device.
The real problem is the sloppy security of the overall system and the fact that the utility companies will sell your data.
Remember the power of patterns and scale. Looking at an individual meter will yield little - but crawling over the data from a million of them will almost certainly tell an observer when you come home, when you have a shower, and what TV channel you are watching. That is very valuable data, and it will almost certainly get sold.
If the wrong people get hold of that data (and history tells us they will) then they have a neat database of when people are out of the house and when they've gone on holiday. With enough data and time, you could identify which people have gone on holiday to their cottage in Devon and thus their house in London is guaranteed empty for the night.
Are the providers going to have much in the way of different information? Of course not. They know where you live, you already provide them plenty of information.The problem is not the smart meter interfering with your home network, as others have said, it is a mobile device.
The real problem is the sloppy security of the overall system and the fact that the utility companies will sell your data.
Remember the power of patterns and scale. Looking at an individual meter will yield little - but crawling over the data from a million of them will almost certainly tell an observer when you come home, when you have a shower, and what TV channel you are watching. That is very valuable data, and it will almost certainly get sold.
If the wrong people get hold of that data (and history tells us they will) then they have a neat database of when people are out of the house and when they've gone on holiday. With enough data and time, you could identify which people have gone on holiday to their cottage in Devon and thus their house in London is guaranteed empty for the night.
And plenty of providers already sell on your basic contact information anyway, regardless of smart meters or not (I've had this happen once, it was rather entertaining - southern water iirc - I called them off a rather unique number that hadn't been given out to anyone - started receiving spam calls shortly after).
But to say that at a smart meter can tell such thing, like what TV channel you are watching (impossible), when you get home (impossible or at least highly unlikely). Holidays are possible, but if a provider is selling this sort of detail, then they're going to be in some serious trouble - that is a level beyond basic name/number sales.
Personally don't see a point in smart meters. They serve no useful function (although my employer would think different - they're a service provider for IOT related technologies)
Crafty_ said:
But all those thing to help manage energy usage are already available, we don't need smart meters to do that stuff. Smart meters are being pushed/forced on us to (eventually) remove the control from us to the energy companies. At some point you'll go to turn a light on and it won't work, because something, somewhere says no.
The point about the EV cars is you're suggesting a cheap off peak period could be used to recharge the vehicle. The point is this won't be an off peak period anymore, because every man and his dog will also be charging their car.
So, you'll pay to charge your car in a peak period, then the next evening plug your car in to use the remainder of the electricity it holds, then pay in a peak period again to recharge it. Forgive me, but somehow this doesn't sound the wonderful solution that was suggested.
One way around the peak period with recharging is to stagger usage, so instead of 2 million cars all on charge 1 million get charged (say) 9-12 and the other million 12-3am. It just gets complicated fast.
The other thing that's not mentioned about this proposal to use stored energy in the car battery to feed back into the grid and then be charged later is the matter of what does this do to the life of the battery? Can't improve it, can only reduce its life, and they aren't cheap.The point about the EV cars is you're suggesting a cheap off peak period could be used to recharge the vehicle. The point is this won't be an off peak period anymore, because every man and his dog will also be charging their car.
So, you'll pay to charge your car in a peak period, then the next evening plug your car in to use the remainder of the electricity it holds, then pay in a peak period again to recharge it. Forgive me, but somehow this doesn't sound the wonderful solution that was suggested.
One way around the peak period with recharging is to stagger usage, so instead of 2 million cars all on charge 1 million get charged (say) 9-12 and the other million 12-3am. It just gets complicated fast.
On the first page the usual response came from the usual poster, it's been done to death, do a search. Yes it has been done to death, and the issue is not going away.
I'll do it when it's of benefit to me, at the moment it's of no or very little benefit whatsoever. I know what I use, I know what are the big power consumers and try to minimise use of those, I know how much the house uses on standby and already turn off inessentials. As others have said, differential pricing, it is not going to be an advantage to me either in price or convenience, if they can come up with a model that is, then will genuinely consider it.
No concerns about tin foil hat stuff and somebody knowing when I turn on the oven. That horse has bolted, I called for a fish supper the other night, later on got a text / Google message asking me to rate and review the fish and chip shop.
rxe said:
If the wrong people get hold of that data (and history tells us they will) then they have a neat database of when people are out of the house and when they've gone on holiday. With enough data and time, you could identify which people have gone on holiday to their cottage in Devon and thus their house in London is guaranteed empty for the night.
The wrong sort of people that would do that are the sort of people who will just have a wander around the neighbourhood, see two cars on a drive in the day, curtains open at night/closed in the day, and lights coming on/off at set times in the evening. So they would already have enough information at their disposal to burgle you anyway without going to the effort of getting hold of some spurious data that they have to then run through.Alternatively, they'll just turn up in the middle of the day and lob a heavy object through your patio doors and rob you. Which is what tends to happen in the real world.
s3fella said:
Jokes aside, I suspect a lot of people showing interest in the uptake of things like this are younger people who don't recall what "it used to be like".
Those of us that remember water rates, drive as many miles a year as you like, how you like, tarrifs the complexity of which was limited to the economy 7 switch, not having tracebale mobile phones and facebook checking us in at places all the time, so everyone knows are business are far more suspicious.
Truth is, the "liberty" of no fker knowing what we are up to is long since gone. And only us that remember the "old days" can see what we have collectively lost. Sad, but true.
Spot on. I would turn it all off given the choice. It's okay though people, just keep watching the shiny shiny...Those of us that remember water rates, drive as many miles a year as you like, how you like, tarrifs the complexity of which was limited to the economy 7 switch, not having tracebale mobile phones and facebook checking us in at places all the time, so everyone knows are business are far more suspicious.
Truth is, the "liberty" of no f
ker knowing what we are up to is long since gone. And only us that remember the "old days" can see what we have collectively lost. Sad, but true.I see a smart meter as a similar concept to a trip computer in a car.
My S2000 didn't have a trip computer. I put petrol in, enjoyed driving it, and never worried about fuel costs. My new Leon has a trip computer. It's annoyingly addictive to care about fuel economy. All it ultimately does is mean I sometimes look at it and think I should accelerate more gently.
It's a novelty for a short time. After that it's just depressing because it encourages you to do the sensible thing rather than the fun thing.
My S2000 didn't have a trip computer. I put petrol in, enjoyed driving it, and never worried about fuel costs. My new Leon has a trip computer. It's annoyingly addictive to care about fuel economy. All it ultimately does is mean I sometimes look at it and think I should accelerate more gently.
It's a novelty for a short time. After that it's just depressing because it encourages you to do the sensible thing rather than the fun thing.
There's a lot of people on here who seem to think that everyone is out to get them, do you also read the Daily Mail? The energy suppliers already know how much energy you use, because they create it, so they can choose to increase the price of that electricity if they choose. A smart meter will give you the ability to know when energy prices are highest (I can only speak about myself, but I don't tend to check when I use energy, but if I had something telling me what it was costing, it would certainly make me think whether I absolutely needed it at that second, i.e. the washing machine or dryer) and therefore be able to choose when you use that energy. It should also enable you to switch supplier more easily so your current supplier isn't likely to hike your prices by 300% at the times you use electricity because you can switch to someone else.
Add to this, you're paying for everyone's smart meters in your bills regardless of whether you have one or not so you might as well pay for it and have one, than pay for it and not have one
Add to this, you're paying for everyone's smart meters in your bills regardless of whether you have one or not so you might as well pay for it and have one, than pay for it and not have one
wc98 said:
just to emphasise the point the "tin-foil brigade" appear to be making .
Liam Hagan, a researcher from security firm Nettitude, said he was "shocked" at the poor job baby monitors and wi-fi cameras did to protect the pictures and sounds they were gathering.
"One of the big issues is that one wi-fi video camera makes itself available to the internet regardless of your firewall," he said. "Anyone who knows your IP address would be greeted with the login screen for the camera."
With one camera he tested, entering a default login name and password granted access to the images and sounds the device was capturing. There was no prompt to change these credentials to protect privacy, he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27373328
Awesome - but not relevant to Smart meters.Liam Hagan, a researcher from security firm Nettitude, said he was "shocked" at the poor job baby monitors and wi-fi cameras did to protect the pictures and sounds they were gathering.
"One of the big issues is that one wi-fi video camera makes itself available to the internet regardless of your firewall," he said. "Anyone who knows your IP address would be greeted with the login screen for the camera."
With one camera he tested, entering a default login name and password granted access to the images and sounds the device was capturing. There was no prompt to change these credentials to protect privacy, he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27373328
1.... Most Smart meters don't connect to your home network - they connect via public cell. So the risk to your home network is no greater than someone standing outside your home with a mobile in their pocket.
2..... They have no sensors beyond energy usage, which is a pretty blunt data set. The only underhand usage I can think of for that data, is working out when the occupants come/go - and lets face it, anyone that wants to know that, could find it out a lot easier (and more accurately) by just sitting outside the house and observing.
wc98 said:
as for being strong armed through pricing into using a smart meter, not going to happen. i will just have the electricity for free and the smart meter sops can pay for it 
No you won't. Electricity companies are surprisingly good at detecting meter fraud. Even with conventional meters, very few people get away with it long term... And when conventional meters get phased out and replaced with mandatory smart meters in a few years time, bypass/fraud detection will be automatically detected.Wills2 said:
I guess these smart meters will be able to tell if you're charging your car hence the need to install them as you'll be paying the equivalent of the prevailing per ltr price for fuel.
Nope - they can tell when you're using electricity but not for what purpose; if you use a lot overnight to charge your car and your current supplier increases the cost, change supplier, it's very simple. Right now, energy is cheapest at night because that's when people generally don't use it so you're not going to be paying any more just because you use it at night!BootsBruce said:
It seems blatantly obvious, that once a certain level of penetration is reached, the energy companies will simply jack up the prices of their non-metered tariffs to make a smart meter the compelling choice.
Once that happens, it'll be interesting to see how many of the tin-foil brigade suddenly decide their paranoia is unfounded and concede to getting a meter.
Yes this is the case.Once that happens, it'll be interesting to see how many of the tin-foil brigade suddenly decide their paranoia is unfounded and concede to getting a meter.
I'm only avoiding them until the smets2 meters are established.
alock said:
I see a smart meter as a similar concept to a trip computer in a car.
My S2000 didn't have a trip computer. I put petrol in, enjoyed driving it, and never worried about fuel costs. My new Leon has a trip computer. It's annoyingly addictive to care about fuel economy. All it ultimately does is mean I sometimes look at it and think I should accelerate more gently.
It's a novelty for a short time. After that it's just depressing because it encourages you to do the sensible thing rather than the fun thing.
It's like that but if you think of the petrol station as the electricity company, every time you pull in to refuel they will check the data on your trip meter and charge you a higher rate per litre for your 'fun' usage.My S2000 didn't have a trip computer. I put petrol in, enjoyed driving it, and never worried about fuel costs. My new Leon has a trip computer. It's annoyingly addictive to care about fuel economy. All it ultimately does is mean I sometimes look at it and think I should accelerate more gently.
It's a novelty for a short time. After that it's just depressing because it encourages you to do the sensible thing rather than the fun thing.
At the moment the petrol station don't know or care or have any power over what you do with your fuel or when you use it - not the same with electricity when smart meters are fully active and peak pricing is introduced.
clonmult said:
Are the providers going to have much in the way of different information? Of course not. They know where you live, you already provide them plenty of information.
And plenty of providers already sell on your basic contact information anyway, regardless of smart meters or not (I've had this happen once, it was rather entertaining - southern water iirc - I called them off a rather unique number that hadn't been given out to anyone - started receiving spam calls shortly after).
But to say that at a smart meter can tell such thing, like what TV channel you are watching (impossible), when you get home (impossible or at least highly unlikely). Holidays are possible, but if a provider is selling this sort of detail, then they're going to be in some serious trouble - that is a level beyond basic name/number sales.
Personally don't see a point in smart meters. They serve no useful function (although my employer would think different - they're a service provider for IOT related technologies)
You really think that you can't derive data from a smart meter? And plenty of providers already sell on your basic contact information anyway, regardless of smart meters or not (I've had this happen once, it was rather entertaining - southern water iirc - I called them off a rather unique number that hadn't been given out to anyone - started receiving spam calls shortly after).
But to say that at a smart meter can tell such thing, like what TV channel you are watching (impossible), when you get home (impossible or at least highly unlikely). Holidays are possible, but if a provider is selling this sort of detail, then they're going to be in some serious trouble - that is a level beyond basic name/number sales.
Personally don't see a point in smart meters. They serve no useful function (although my employer would think different - they're a service provider for IOT related technologies)
Simple example - a series of small resistive loads comes on in a house at some time in the evening in winter. In the summer it doesn't happen, but similar resistive loads come on later. That's lights going on. Analyse enough data, and you'll see the pattern. So a house that goes from pulling very little power (inductive loads as the fridge comes on during the day), and then has a series of resistive loads = house was empty, person has come home.
TV channels can easily be derived from activity changes during ad breaks, again,with enough data, it is easy to discern.
Of course, no one will gather such data. They said they wouldn't. But if they're going to be able to shape demand - they have to gather this sort of data.
clonmult said:
But to say that at a smart meter can tell such thing, like what TV channel you are watching (impossible), when you get home (impossible or at least highly unlikely).
Not impossible. Not only is it possible, it's been done in public let alone by a clandestine agency. It doesn't need to be live TV, you don't even need to know people put the kettle on after Eastenders has finished. And you can guarantee those with budgets and an interest in this have gone a step further.http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6364822/
BootsBruce said:
2..... They have no sensors beyond energy usage, which is a pretty blunt data set. The only underhand usage I can think of for that data, is working out when the occupants come/go - and lets face it, anyone that wants to know that, could find it out a lot easier (and more accurately) by just sitting outside the house and observing.
But you could only sit outside and monitor maybe a few houses at one time.With this data you could monitor a whole town from a desktop. If we're moving to an EV future it's even easier than monitoring lights and heating. Then you'd know very confidently and quickly when an entire street were away at work.
footnote said:
It's like that but if you think of the petrol station as the electricity company, every time you pull in to refuel they will check the data on your trip meter and charge you a higher rate per litre for your 'fun' usage.
At the moment the petrol station don't know or care or have any power over what you do with your fuel or when you use it - not the same with electricity when smart meters are fully active and peak pricing is introduced.
At the moment the petrol station don't know or care or have any power over what you do with your fuel or when you use it - not the same with electricity when smart meters are fully active and peak pricing is introduced.
Electricity companies already charge more for peak usage...Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff