Smart Meters ITV Tonight
Discussion
louiebaby said:
Now consider the connected appliances. How about a situation when the grid can turn everyone's fridge/freezer onto an energy saving mode when a spike is about to happen, and back to normal when it has passed? Chances are, it will make no difference to your life, or the contents of your fridge, but will keep the grid more balanced, and costs down overall.
Finally, as we all move to electric cars, over the next decade or so. When you get in from work, you plug your car in and "offer" the remaining power in the batteries to the grid. It is then bought from you when demand and prices are very high that evening, only for it to re-charge in the wee small hours when demand is low and prices are too.
Unless there is an event going on (e.g. It's just been filled or the door is open etc) why wouldn't the freezer be in power saving mode anyway ?
If there is an event, it either won't or shouldn't go in to power save mode, regardless of what the grid wants.
You might argue it could switch off equipment - computers, pvrs etc but what if power needs to be maintained to that equipment, regardless of if it's idle ? Background applications running or a schedule to record something ?
This idea that we can just 'switch down' our homes and businesses is not as easy as it's made out.
Secondly this idea of dumping unused energy from vehicles back in to the grid only to pay for it again makes no sense. For a start this off peak periods when it's cheap to recharge won't exist, because everyone car will be on charge and therefore demand will be higher and so will prices, bang goes our cheap off peak periods.
Oh but recharging can be staggered right ? Which would mean if you miss your charging slot you're screwed. Go out for the evening and you can't use the car the next day.
There are lots of great ideas that work in theory but in practice will be an utter waste of time and money.
Anyway according to a post in the EV forum we already have enough capacity for evening to instantly switch to EV cars right now, so why the need to save all this energy ? /s
R8Steve said:
Strange, i'm actively looking for a new energy supplier and one of the requirements is that it comes with a smart meter.
As the different companies' meters are incompatible and cannot currently be read by each other that is a not a very good idea if you then want to change supplier again.Ean218 said:
R8Steve said:
Strange, i'm actively looking for a new energy supplier and one of the requirements is that it comes with a smart meter.
As the different companies' meters are incompatible and cannot currently be read by each other that is a not a very good idea if you then want to change supplier again.Crafty_ said:
To pick up on just a couple of points
Unless there is an event going on (e.g. It's just been filled or the door is open etc) why wouldn't the freezer be in power saving mode anyway ?
If there is an event, it either won't or shouldn't go in to power save mode, regardless of what the grid wants.
You might argue it could switch off equipment - computers, pvrs etc but what if power needs to be maintained to that equipment, regardless of if it's idle ? Background applications running or a schedule to record something ?
This idea that we can just 'switch down' our homes and businesses is not as easy as it's made out.
Secondly this idea of dumping unused energy from vehicles back in to the grid only to pay for it again makes no sense. For a start this off peak periods when it's cheap to recharge won't exist, because everyone car will be on charge and therefore demand will be higher and so will prices, bang goes our cheap off peak periods.
Oh but recharging can be staggered right ? Which would mean if you miss your charging slot you're screwed. Go out for the evening and you can't use the car the next day.
There are lots of great ideas that work in theory but in practice will be an utter waste of time and money.
Anyway according to a post in the EV forum we already have enough capacity for evening to instantly switch to EV cars right now, so why the need to save all this energy ? /s
Thanks for your points, and for making them in a non-confrontational manner.Unless there is an event going on (e.g. It's just been filled or the door is open etc) why wouldn't the freezer be in power saving mode anyway ?
If there is an event, it either won't or shouldn't go in to power save mode, regardless of what the grid wants.
You might argue it could switch off equipment - computers, pvrs etc but what if power needs to be maintained to that equipment, regardless of if it's idle ? Background applications running or a schedule to record something ?
This idea that we can just 'switch down' our homes and businesses is not as easy as it's made out.
Secondly this idea of dumping unused energy from vehicles back in to the grid only to pay for it again makes no sense. For a start this off peak periods when it's cheap to recharge won't exist, because everyone car will be on charge and therefore demand will be higher and so will prices, bang goes our cheap off peak periods.
Oh but recharging can be staggered right ? Which would mean if you miss your charging slot you're screwed. Go out for the evening and you can't use the car the next day.
There are lots of great ideas that work in theory but in practice will be an utter waste of time and money.
Anyway according to a post in the EV forum we already have enough capacity for evening to instantly switch to EV cars right now, so why the need to save all this energy ? /s
My suggestions are based around two points: Tiny, incremental changes one a countrywide level being beneficial, and Grid Balancing/Demand Management.
The fridge thing is about tiny differences. If the thermostat switches the cooling on above -5 Celsius, and off at -8 Celsius, being able to change that remotely to reduce grid demand to -3 and -6, for instance, could really help grid demand without my fish-fingers defrosting. Similarly, if an office is set to maintain temperature by heating or A/C between 16 and 18 Celsius, having it remotely relaxed to 15 and 19 could also ease grid demand when needed, and the few people left in work between 4pm and 7pm would likely know little difference.
I'm certainly not advocating remote switching off of stuff like computers, TVs or ovens. What I'm saying is that by managing the grid better we can avoid rolling blackouts etc.
The use of battery technology as storage to further smooth out demand is coming along too. By using the battery of your EV as part of the solution is just a smart way to increase the battery capacity available. If you wanted to use it in the evening, you could just not plug it in, or plug it in and not offer the electricity it has.
Solar is a great resource, but not Nov-Feb, 4pm - 7pm. These storage solutions can help to smooth out supply and demand. We do still need increased baseload, that works through the night, and Hinckley C will really help this, when it is completed. Increased baseload combined with stored oversupply of renewable will all help balance the grid, so there is always enough power available.
louiebaby said:
My suggestions are based around two points: Tiny, incremental changes one a countrywide level being beneficial, and Grid Balancing/Demand Management.
The problem with educating the public as you suggest is that many do not have the capacity to handle such education. We have a lot of thick, ignorant folks.louiebaby said:
The use of battery technology as storage to further smooth out demand is coming along too. By using the battery of your EV as part of the solution is just a smart way to increase the battery capacity available. If you wanted to use it in the evening, you could just not plug it in, or plug it in and not offer the electricity it has.
What if folks don't know for sure whether they might need it or not? I wouldn't be keen to remove my mobility and I presume many others would be the same. You might be presuming more altruism than actually exists.louiebaby said:
Increased baseload combined with stored oversupply of renewable will all help balance the grid, so there is always enough power available.
I agree with the concept but doubt there is the current will to make the necessary compromises.R8Steve said:
No, i don't.
There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
Your laughter is born of ignorance. The two biggest ddos attacks in history happened just recently, and we're mostly done using compromised home devices; cctv cameras, smart lightbulbs etc. Many of the current crop of "smart" devices have appallingly lax security and give attackers easy access to your WiFi and from there, anything connected to it. The tablet you do your banking on and all that stuff. Anything connected to the Internet and your home network is an attack vector, and the more things and connections there are, the more ways in there are.There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
I still can't believe some people think that the Government and energy companies are rolling out smart meters to save the consumer money...
The roll out is going to cost a lot of money, IIRC something like £2b. There is only one group of people that is going to pick up the bill for that in the future. That is the consumers.
I won't be having one until it is a legal requirement.
The roll out is going to cost a lot of money, IIRC something like £2b. There is only one group of people that is going to pick up the bill for that in the future. That is the consumers.
I won't be having one until it is a legal requirement.
[quote=Rovinghawk][Many good points.../quote]
I agree about there being people who don't get it, but with a smart meter display in your kitchen, it can be quite easy to see.
The mobility issue is also valid, but in some cases, having £20 handy for an emergency taxi because you've flattened your EV might work, or the ability to always leave 30 miles of range in the EV. Again, the smart meter will tell you in real time how much you're saving / earning from offering your car.
With respect to people not having the will to change, perhaps they "need" a few blackouts for them to realise the situation we find ourselves in. This is great for us to see where the UK's capacity is coming from in almost real time:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Again, I state, I'm not a troll. I am not discounting some of the security concerns people have. (Although some do sound a bit far-fetched.) I just want to make sure that some of the ways that smart meters can be a good thing are also represented.)
I agree about there being people who don't get it, but with a smart meter display in your kitchen, it can be quite easy to see.
The mobility issue is also valid, but in some cases, having £20 handy for an emergency taxi because you've flattened your EV might work, or the ability to always leave 30 miles of range in the EV. Again, the smart meter will tell you in real time how much you're saving / earning from offering your car.
With respect to people not having the will to change, perhaps they "need" a few blackouts for them to realise the situation we find ourselves in. This is great for us to see where the UK's capacity is coming from in almost real time:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Again, I state, I'm not a troll. I am not discounting some of the security concerns people have. (Although some do sound a bit far-fetched.) I just want to make sure that some of the ways that smart meters can be a good thing are also represented.)
king noises of paranoid retards from internet forums via the medium of smart meters haha what a world.GlenMH said:
Why on earth you would give someone remote control of switching off your utilities (particularly with the IT security issues that such a device presents) is beyond me.
I'd love to hear an explanation of how it would turn my gas off. Does it have a motorised hand that comes out of the back of the meter to turn the big ON/OFF lever?Same for water I assume as well?
Crafty_ said:
Anyway according to a post in the EV forum we already have enough capacity for evening to instantly switch to EV cars right now, so why the need to save all this energy ? /s
Very basically, the entire thing is driven by the UN sustainability mantra, the famous agenda 21. Hunkering down on the consumption of resources. Very, very basically , historically, energy generation would be expanded to meet increased demand , another city, another power station, jut dig up more coal when you need it, with some extra for safety, job done.
Now what they are doing, is trying to make the consumption, fit the energy generation capacity. They are shutting controllabe coal plants, and replacing them with uncontrollable windmils, solar panels, etc. Not only can they not just "ramp up output" as they wish with these methods , they also incur huge transmission costs. So, by controlling usage they can minmise major generation sources, nuclear etc, and make usage fit the unpredictable nature of the mills and solar . Not very well articulated, and very basic, but thats the gist of things. Apparently they are trying methods to store output from windmils when demand is low, thus using it at higher demand times , why the heck though they do not rely on expanding controllable generation methods, is truly barking, until you recall that agenda.
Swervin_Mervin said:
GlenMH said:
Why on earth you would give someone remote control of switching off your utilities (particularly with the IT security issues that such a device presents) is beyond me.
I'd love to hear an explanation of how it would turn my gas off. Does it have a motorised hand that comes out of the back of the meter to turn the big ON/OFF lever?Same for water I assume as well?
Edited by Gareth79 on Wednesday 22 February 14:27
Swervin_Mervin said:
I'd love to hear an explanation of how it would turn my gas off. Does it have a motorised hand that comes out of the back of the meter to turn the big ON/OFF lever?
Same for water I assume as well?
Thats how me mate : http://www.edmi-meters.co.uk/g10u-smart-gas-meter/Same for water I assume as well?
The downloadable pdf highlights the remotely activated supply valve.
Quiet day today ;-)
Mr SmartMeter – Hi, I've come to install your new smart meter.
Me – Oh, I think I'm fine as I am. I can't think of any reason why I should have one?
Mr SmartMeter – Well, you'll never have to check your meter to give us an accurate reading again saving you that onerous trip to the meter cupboard once every 3 months.
Me – I see, that sounds great, that trip is what did for my parents in the end. Is the smart meter free?
Mr SmartMeter – Kind of... it'll cost you about £100 - £200, we're not sure, it could be more... but we'll add it on to everybody's bills so it may as well be free, eh?
Me – I don't know, I'm fine as I am really... why are you doing this anyway?
Mr SmartMeter – Well, we're trying save money for people who are too stupid to save their own money for themselves.
Me – Oh, I see, well that's very noble – how will you use the smart meter to do that?
Mr SmartMeter – Easy – the smart meter will provide us with data which tells us when you're using the most electricity. We'll then increase the price of the electricity at those times. This will help you to use less of it. The smart meter will also tell us when you don't use electricity and we'll reduce the price of the electricity at those times. Because of this, the average quoted price of your electricity bill will be even less than before – easy! That's how smart meters will save you money!
Me – Wait a minute – doesn't that just mean I'll pay more for the electricity I use and less for the electricity I don't use? That won't save me any money! That will cost me more! And I'll have to pay for the cost of the meter too!
Mr SmartMeter – Well, what do you think we are? Charities? We can only make so much electricity and you muppets want to use it all at the same time – that ain't the way it works.
Me – Why don't you build another power station and make more electricity?
Mr SmartMeter – Do you have any idea how much that costs? Do you have any idea of the impact on our profit margins? On shareholder value? C'mon!!!
Me – Oh, I see, I thought you we're trying to help me. But you're not. You're just like all the others.
Mr SmartMeter – What do mean like all the others?
Me – You're just like Mr WaterMeter. He said I could save the environment by not using so much water. He said he'd help me do that with a water meter which would help me to use less water by charging me more for it. He got the Government to pass a law making me have a water meter and now I can only afford to flush my toilet once a day. My house smells and my children have dirty hands and sometimes they get sick from infections and unsanitary conditions.
I asked Mr WaterMeter why he didn't fix the leaks at the waterworks to save water and help the environment but he said he couldn't afford to do that and make a profit. He asked what sort of fool I was... which made me sad.
Mr SmartMeter – Hey, I'd never do that to you. You could always use the cheap electricity when you don't currently use electricity.
Me – I have to be at work then.
Mr SmartMeter – Couldn't you get a different job? Work nights or something?
Me – Only if they open schools for my kids at night too.
Mr SmartMeter – Well, I'm sorry about all that but you're just going to have to put up with it.
Me – That's what you think – I'll go and change my electricity supplier – it's still a free world you know! I'll show you!
Mr SmartMeter – Go ahead! Why not? Knock yourself out. Spend a few hours comparing our prices and pick a cheaper supplier and then in a year, their prices will go up and you'll find another supplier and eventually you'll end up back with me. Go and take a running jump on the Supplier Switching merry-go-round – but think about this – there's gas and there's electricity in the world and there's only so many sources in the world and so many power stations and we're all getting it from the same places at the same prices and selling you the same stuff. Up and down we put the prices, round and round you go – it's your time, it's your life – hey, what else have you got to do with it? Knock yourself out. Keeps you from thinking too much and doing anything to change it, eh?
Me – But I'm short of money. I can't pay more and more for electricity and water and then pay more and more for meters to make me pay more and more for electricity and water!
Mr SmartMeter – Well, it's your choice. Everybody else is happy enough to go along with it.
Me – I feel like such a fool.
Mr SmartMeter – Well, you're not alone there, that's one thing there's no shortage of – good day to you sir.
Mr SmartMeter – Hi, I've come to install your new smart meter.
Me – Oh, I think I'm fine as I am. I can't think of any reason why I should have one?
Mr SmartMeter – Well, you'll never have to check your meter to give us an accurate reading again saving you that onerous trip to the meter cupboard once every 3 months.
Me – I see, that sounds great, that trip is what did for my parents in the end. Is the smart meter free?
Mr SmartMeter – Kind of... it'll cost you about £100 - £200, we're not sure, it could be more... but we'll add it on to everybody's bills so it may as well be free, eh?
Me – I don't know, I'm fine as I am really... why are you doing this anyway?
Mr SmartMeter – Well, we're trying save money for people who are too stupid to save their own money for themselves.
Me – Oh, I see, well that's very noble – how will you use the smart meter to do that?
Mr SmartMeter – Easy – the smart meter will provide us with data which tells us when you're using the most electricity. We'll then increase the price of the electricity at those times. This will help you to use less of it. The smart meter will also tell us when you don't use electricity and we'll reduce the price of the electricity at those times. Because of this, the average quoted price of your electricity bill will be even less than before – easy! That's how smart meters will save you money!
Me – Wait a minute – doesn't that just mean I'll pay more for the electricity I use and less for the electricity I don't use? That won't save me any money! That will cost me more! And I'll have to pay for the cost of the meter too!
Mr SmartMeter – Well, what do you think we are? Charities? We can only make so much electricity and you muppets want to use it all at the same time – that ain't the way it works.
Me – Why don't you build another power station and make more electricity?
Mr SmartMeter – Do you have any idea how much that costs? Do you have any idea of the impact on our profit margins? On shareholder value? C'mon!!!
Me – Oh, I see, I thought you we're trying to help me. But you're not. You're just like all the others.
Mr SmartMeter – What do mean like all the others?
Me – You're just like Mr WaterMeter. He said I could save the environment by not using so much water. He said he'd help me do that with a water meter which would help me to use less water by charging me more for it. He got the Government to pass a law making me have a water meter and now I can only afford to flush my toilet once a day. My house smells and my children have dirty hands and sometimes they get sick from infections and unsanitary conditions.
I asked Mr WaterMeter why he didn't fix the leaks at the waterworks to save water and help the environment but he said he couldn't afford to do that and make a profit. He asked what sort of fool I was... which made me sad.
Mr SmartMeter – Hey, I'd never do that to you. You could always use the cheap electricity when you don't currently use electricity.
Me – I have to be at work then.
Mr SmartMeter – Couldn't you get a different job? Work nights or something?
Me – Only if they open schools for my kids at night too.
Mr SmartMeter – Well, I'm sorry about all that but you're just going to have to put up with it.
Me – That's what you think – I'll go and change my electricity supplier – it's still a free world you know! I'll show you!
Mr SmartMeter – Go ahead! Why not? Knock yourself out. Spend a few hours comparing our prices and pick a cheaper supplier and then in a year, their prices will go up and you'll find another supplier and eventually you'll end up back with me. Go and take a running jump on the Supplier Switching merry-go-round – but think about this – there's gas and there's electricity in the world and there's only so many sources in the world and so many power stations and we're all getting it from the same places at the same prices and selling you the same stuff. Up and down we put the prices, round and round you go – it's your time, it's your life – hey, what else have you got to do with it? Knock yourself out. Keeps you from thinking too much and doing anything to change it, eh?
Me – But I'm short of money. I can't pay more and more for electricity and water and then pay more and more for meters to make me pay more and more for electricity and water!
Mr SmartMeter – Well, it's your choice. Everybody else is happy enough to go along with it.
Me – I feel like such a fool.
Mr SmartMeter – Well, you're not alone there, that's one thing there's no shortage of – good day to you sir.
It seems my question about hacking them to give false readings has already been achieved.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.networkworld.com/...
There's most likely less signs that it has been fiddled compared to current meters, and even more so if no one comes round.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.networkworld.com/...
There's most likely less signs that it has been fiddled compared to current meters, and even more so if no one comes round.
CrutyRammers said:
R8Steve said:
No, i don't.
There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
Your laughter is born of ignorance. The two biggest ddos attacks in history happened just recently, and we're mostly done using compromised home devices; cctv cameras, smart lightbulbs etc. Many of the current crop of "smart" devices have appallingly lax security and give attackers easy access to your WiFi and from there, anything connected to it. The tablet you do your banking on and all that stuff. Anything connected to the Internet and your home network is an attack vector, and the more things and connections there are, the more ways in there are.There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
Hosenbugler said:
Swervin_Mervin said:
I'd love to hear an explanation of how it would turn my gas off. Does it have a motorised hand that comes out of the back of the meter to turn the big ON/OFF lever?
Same for water I assume as well?
Thats how me mate : http://www.edmi-meters.co.uk/g10u-smart-gas-meter/Same for water I assume as well?
The downloadable pdf highlights the remotely activated supply valve.
I'll have to check what make ours is later as it's not one of those but I can't imagine it being much different. I'll be checking the water one as well, but that's a tiny unit so I'd be surprised if it has a valve in it.
What is funny is that we switched suppliers after BG fitted ours, and the new lot couldn't locate them/weren't compatible. We're now back with BG on the tariff merry-go-round and they can't pick up one of them, so we have to provide a reading
R8Steve said:
CrutyRammers said:
R8Steve said:
No, i don't.
There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
Your laughter is born of ignorance. The two biggest ddos attacks in history happened just recently, and we're mostly done using compromised home devices; cctv cameras, smart lightbulbs etc. Many of the current crop of "smart" devices have appallingly lax security and give attackers easy access to your WiFi and from there, anything connected to it. The tablet you do your banking on and all that stuff. Anything connected to the Internet and your home network is an attack vector, and the more things and connections there are, the more ways in there are.There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
I, on the other hand, have many secrets and intend to keep them so.
footnote said:
R8Steve said:
CrutyRammers said:
R8Steve said:
No, i don't.
There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
Your laughter is born of ignorance. The two biggest ddos attacks in history happened just recently, and we're mostly done using compromised home devices; cctv cameras, smart lightbulbs etc. Many of the current crop of "smart" devices have appallingly lax security and give attackers easy access to your WiFi and from there, anything connected to it. The tablet you do your banking on and all that stuff. Anything connected to the Internet and your home network is an attack vector, and the more things and connections there are, the more ways in there are.There is no microphones in them and i don't believe i'll ever start referring to my electricity meter as a possible attack vector and worrying about whether an RFID chip in my girlfriends hairdryer is secretly creating a radar map of my house to see what i'm doing or if i'm in or not.
I don't see why anyone would be even be remotely (no pun intended) interested in any of this information in any case but if foreign agencies want to know when i go to the toilet or watch a film it's a risk i'm willing to take.
I, on the other hand, have many secrets and intend to keep them so.
Swervin_Mervin said:
I'll be checking the water one as well, but that's a tiny unit so I'd be surprised if it has a valve in it.
:
From memory, I don't beleive that water companies can cut off a customer for non payment , so apparently what they do is restrict the supply so it takes all day to fill a bath, (as example) . So I would be amazed if that water meter has not got some form of remotely operated restrictor in it. Is the meter in the path,or on the mains supply after it enters the building?:
Edited by Hosenbugler on Wednesday 22 February 15:50
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