Cressida Dick is the new Met commissioner
Discussion
El stovey said:
I agree with the first bit and that's certainly been my experience of people that have come from the police to the aviation industry and conversations I have with currently serving members of the police.
It's not just the open reporting culture though, it's the recurrent training and evidence based ATQP simulator sessions we have now, the on going training and proficiency checking is also very different as is the task management and descision making models and procedures.
Even one friend who was an ex cabin crew member thought his airline training was far superior and left him more blue to do his job than his initial police training. That's just cabin crew training, not even pilot training.
Friends of mine who are firearms officers in the Midlands seem to have a very professional attitude to continuation training and an assessment regime that sounded quite familiar to me. Unfortunately both expressed concerns about the IPCC and the fact they hadn't got faith in the system to treat them fairly if a mistake was made. They don't get any higher pay to do it and they were both considering giving up at a time when firearms recruitment and retention is a priority. It's not just the open reporting culture though, it's the recurrent training and evidence based ATQP simulator sessions we have now, the on going training and proficiency checking is also very different as is the task management and descision making models and procedures.
Even one friend who was an ex cabin crew member thought his airline training was far superior and left him more blue to do his job than his initial police training. That's just cabin crew training, not even pilot training.
The regular Police seem to be suffering from much worse support logistically though. In the airline if we have a minimum crew for a jet that's a cast iron limit. The professional protections we have avoid pressure on the day to do something unsafe. I understand other aviation authorities operate to different standards in other parts of the world. On a Police response team they aren't protected and failing to put themselves at risk and complete a task without adequate resourcing can be considered neglect of duty.
It's a different world - I've been there and will always have some bias because of it, but I'd never excuse corruption or criminal behaviour - I do think that we need to understand that Policing will always be imperfect and that when mistakes are made it's better to learn from it as aviation tries to, rather than demand a sacrifice to expediency. One of the reasons I'm cautiously optimistic about Cressida....
El stovey said:
I agree with the first bit and that's certainly been my experience of people that have come from the police to the aviation industry and conversations I have with currently serving members of the police.
It's not just the open reporting culture though, it's the recurrent training and evidence based ATQP simulator sessions we have now, the on going training and proficiency checking is also very different as is the task management and descision making models and procedures.
Even one friend who was an ex cabin crew member thought his airline training was far superior and left him more blue to do his job than his initial police training. That's just cabin crew training, not even pilot training.
Police training has been hit by the cuts. The system established over quite a few years, although not without its critics, had to go as the cuts to recruiting meant there were too few students. There was an outside agency called some years ago to monitor in-force training and the systems they suggested were introduced and were much more effective. However, again with stop start recruiting there is no way to build experience. It's not just the open reporting culture though, it's the recurrent training and evidence based ATQP simulator sessions we have now, the on going training and proficiency checking is also very different as is the task management and descision making models and procedures.
Even one friend who was an ex cabin crew member thought his airline training was far superior and left him more blue to do his job than his initial police training. That's just cabin crew training, not even pilot training.
It was never brilliant though.
The consistent training was, in my day, taken over by H&S, equal opportunities, racial awareness and such, all brought in as individual course at the request (demand) of the Home Office. My last three non-role-specific training was on the three headings above, all repeating, with different emphasis, previous courses.
On one course a civvie from a minority group was presented to us for questioning as to how he was treated. No one in our group could believe that any officer would treat the person in that manner. One inspector said that he could not ignore what was being said, despite the 'what happens on this course stays on it' suggestion as we'd been told of a serious series of criminal offences by one, maybe more, police officers. A DC was called in. The victim couldn't believe that they wer being treated seriously. It turned out that they'd not complained to the police before. Another course involved sexual orientation and one of the gay blokes who came in was one of my volunteers on ID parades. He came up to me and gave me a bit of a hug, asking me how I was, and why he had not been called for a while. The person running that part of the course was not amused.
Role-specific courses were often brilliant. I went on one, actually was sent on one, for Betting, Gaming and Lotteries because I was on annual leave when the list came in. It was a fascinating course and my interest was kept up for years. Well done, GMP.
I'd have put training down as one aspect where the police need to improve when I was in the job, and it had much more resources directed at it in those days and given highish priority. Heaven knows what happens now. Once a classroom is lost to another department it is gone forever.
I somewhat doubt cabin crew training was better for someone to do police work than police training.
As others have mentioned, the 'regulatory' body for the police, the IPCC, aren't just looking to 'fact find' and work towards improvements. They're looking to gather evidence with a view to prosecuting officers. Whilst ever that risk exists, an officer will always take a legally defensive position and disclosure what is in their best interests.
That doesn't prevent recommendations and improvements, but it starts off the process on the wrong footing and is the trade-off between punitive punishments vs learning and development.
I'm told the Met are the best at it, which isn't a surprise given they shoot most people. There are a few forces which have never shot anyone, so even with the best planning in the world, there'll be a fair bit of learning from the post incident procedures if it ever does happen.
As others have mentioned, the 'regulatory' body for the police, the IPCC, aren't just looking to 'fact find' and work towards improvements. They're looking to gather evidence with a view to prosecuting officers. Whilst ever that risk exists, an officer will always take a legally defensive position and disclosure what is in their best interests.
That doesn't prevent recommendations and improvements, but it starts off the process on the wrong footing and is the trade-off between punitive punishments vs learning and development.
brenflys777 said:
Friends of mine who are firearms officers in the Midlands seem to have a very professional attitude to continuation training and an assessment regime that sounded quite familiar to me. Unfortunately both expressed concerns about the IPCC and the fact they hadn't got faith in the system to treat them fairly if a mistake was made. They don't get any higher pay to do it and they were both considering giving up at a time when firearms recruitment and retention is a priority.
The firearms environment is probably about the best when it comes to a constructive approach to developing things. Any development is primarily going to make it less likely to shoot anyone, which is what everyone involved is aiming for, so there's a clear incentive to do whatever it takes to help make that a reality. I'm told the Met are the best at it, which isn't a surprise given they shoot most people. There are a few forces which have never shot anyone, so even with the best planning in the world, there'll be a fair bit of learning from the post incident procedures if it ever does happen.
La Liga said:
he firearms environment is probably about the best when it comes to a constructive approach to developing things. Any development is primarily going to make it less likely to shoot anyone, which is what everyone involved is aiming for, so there's a clear incentive to do whatever it takes to help make that a reality.
I'm told the Met are the best at it, which isn't a surprise given they shoot most people. There are a few forces which have never shot anyone, so even with the best planning in the world, there'll be a fair bit of learning from the post incident procedures if it ever does happen.
When I was in the City Police firearms unit the class leaders were Essex. They had imaginative team leaders who set up everything and their lead team was buzzing. Brian Bishop was on the team. He was shot and killed by an armed robber in the middle 80s. The offender shot and wounded another police officer but, if memory serves, the jury found him not guilty of att. murder and only of wounding w/i. Not sure how that works.I'm told the Met are the best at it, which isn't a surprise given they shoot most people. There are a few forces which have never shot anyone, so even with the best planning in the world, there'll be a fair bit of learning from the post incident procedures if it ever does happen.
Nothing to do with the subject in hand but it helps show that even being very experienced and top at their role is no defence when there's a spontaneous incident where officers are required to act immediately on imperfect information.
RIP Brian.
Rovinghawk said:
La Liga said:
If only the police thought of managing high-risk, dynamic incidents as a continuous learning process.
"Lessons being learned?" Excellent.You should have said so before.
Here's a link to an article about IPCC who have formalised the approach of treating an armed officer as a suspect rather than a witness following a shooting:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/21/ip...
An armed officer who writes excellent blogs, tweets and has an interest in the motoring and aviation world has just penned this -worth a read for those that take it for granted that armed officers can be vilified continually without risking public safety:
https://dcarvsgt.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/we-need-...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/21/ip...
An armed officer who writes excellent blogs, tweets and has an interest in the motoring and aviation world has just penned this -worth a read for those that take it for granted that armed officers can be vilified continually without risking public safety:
https://dcarvsgt.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/we-need-...
brenflys777 said:
I must confess I'm not a fan of the "allowed to confer" rule but you certainly couldn't pay me to do that job.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:brenflys777 said:
I must confess I'm not a fan of the "allowed to confer" rule but you certainly couldn't pay me to do that job.I'm not for a minute going to suggest the Police are perfect, far from it, but when you read some of the unadulterated bull manure that gets posted about them, by the same posters, over and over again, you have to wonder why they bother.
Rovinghawk said:
Greendubber said:
Perhaps you should consider the new direct entry scheme and join up and share your vast experience.
And risk becoming like you? No thanks.Besides, I couldn't handle the pay cut.
Evidently you're either in a much better paid job than a Police Officer or you're too old to start at the lower scales even if you could pass selection, but how much money would it take for you to do the job of an armed Police Officer and face the personal risks and repercussions of both the criminals and the IPCC?
What should Officers who do this be paid in addition to non armed officers if insufficient volunteers of a high enough standard come forward? £10k, 10%?
Rovinghawk said:
"Lessons being learned?" Excellent.
The man (or boy?) who doesn't want the police to improve.The best thing that happened in my time in the job was the idea of continuous improvement, the challenging of the status quo, the idea that you could improve performance, and not only from mistakes, but from doing things correctly. It is a procedure that was taken from the private sector.
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