What is Germany doing right that we're not? And why?

What is Germany doing right that we're not? And why?

Author
Discussion

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
There is a better attitude to investment over there, much of it long term. There is a better attitude by workers. They have a right to be on the boards of certain sized companies and many take a full part. There is a better attitude by management as well.

We got more Marhsall Aid after the war, that's the outright gift, but we were broke. That's not like recently, nor even after WWI, but destitute. The Americans pulled the aid plug post VE day and it was, I was told, somewhat scary. They Keynes loan, with interest, paid off around 2005 if memory serves, was a bit of a slap in the face given lease lend cost us a small fortune. To give the USA its due, Marhsall Aid was generous.

As someone said, the investment in infrastructure in Germany after the war, all at the expense of the USA and, remarkably, us was well planned and designed well. Whilst some countries scavenged for assets - but then these were countries that had been occupied and had justification - the UK didn't to any great extent. The Bristol straight six, complete with two pushrods for half the valves, was one asset acquired, so we got a 20-year-old engine, and there were others, but we didn't strip and run.

Germany went through some really tough years but then so did the UK post war. In fact Germany came off rationing years before we did. Metal for production of goods was brought in free. In the UK if you didn't export you had to make it out of wood. A slight exaggeration, but not by much. The first Land Rover had alloy panels because that was all that could be found.

The UK rebuilt rather than replaced its infrastructure. It was a necessity at the time, due to lack of funds, but it was costly in the long term.

Most importantly, much of the old ruling cadre in Germany was pushed to one side (Krupps notwithstanding) and new blood was introduced with new ideas. Despite the labour government of the brilliant Atlee, the old landowners retained much of their authority, power and in many case, money. We returned to pre war levels of business. The Germans, through no great effort on their behalf, had to start from new.

On top of that, we kept our forces at high strength for too long. Germany could not and had no need to, it was protected by the allies, all of whom pumped money into the country one way or the other. Had East Germany been part of it, they'd be even further ahead.

The difference between bosses and workers wasn't so pronounced in Germany. That helped no end.


nikaiyo2

4,672 posts

194 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Zod said:
The Germans have an absurdly generous welfare state. You get 60% of net salary as unemployment benefit for a year.
It is much more contributory than in the UK isnt it, if you have been in work and fallen on hard times for a short period it is supportive. I think after the 1st 12 months the German benefits are MUCH less generous than the UK. 250 or 300 euro a month.

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Halb said:
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that withthe stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
Yes 100% sadly we listened to bankers and acoutatants while germany listened to engineers and built up it's manufacturing we allowed the spivs and asset strippers to rape our industial base for short term gain ...
Oh and the stty them and us attitude from our managerial class and unions didn't exactly help ether!!

Edited by powerstroke on Thursday 23 February 17:13

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
Yes 100% sadly we listened to bankers and acoutatants while germany listened to engineers and built up it's manufacturing we allowed the spivs and asset strippers to rape our industial base for short term gain ...
They eventually listened to bean counters. That's why we got the W201 replacement for the W124 E-Class. No longer built to a standard but to a price.

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
They eventually listened to bean counters. That's why we got the W201 replacement for the W124 E-Class. No longer built to a standard but to a price.
Yes and it will be their undoing !
My other bussiness is maintaining and installing automatic feeders for agriculture and the german manufacturer has recently redesigned the feeders with plastic instead of metal they look flimsy and cheep
so we are now looking for alternative equipment ... sad but looks like Germany is on the way down , they will only be able trade on reputation for so long before the Death spiral kicks in ..

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Indeed, anyone who has worked in Germany or Northern Europe and even France to a lesser extent will know there is a vastly different culture to that of the UK and the more so the US.

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
German society values the engineering, manufacturing and scientific sectors, the UK doesn't.

German banks are typically more supportive of German businesses when compared to the support that British banks provide to British businesses.

The West German economy was (and is) a real powerhouse, the cost of reunification is of the order of 2 trillion Euros.

Meridius

1,608 posts

151 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Its the people, the culture, the attitude.

The UK seems lazy and everything drawn out longer than it needs to be in comparison.

so called

9,074 posts

208 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
From my experience, middle management in Germany is so much clearer. My example has always they following the German DIN Standards was easier than following British Standards even in the wrong language.
The information on here has been very educational.

I remember being on an internal US flight a few years back. Around the time of the second Gulf War, the tosster sat next to me state to his mates in the rows in front and behind, "we should stay in Iraq and suck their oil dry, no one ever pays us back for rescuing ther asses in wars".
I replied very loudly that the UK had paid every single penny back with the last $2B being paid in 2004.
He apologised with, yea but apart from the Brits.
I said that my understanding was that the Germans were still paying.


jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Euro.

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
After WW2 they invested their Marshall Aid in technical education and industrial reequipping, and their unions weren't such wkers.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
After the war the Germans did not immediately need to develop and fund, a military as that was being provided mainly by the US and UK, or put cash into developing a nuclear deterrent, they also received vast sums in US financial aid. Even a Brit was responsible for re starting production at VW. Where was the financial reparation from Germany to the UK to cover the loss caused by the Nazis WW2actions? it didn't happen, because Germany had virtually nothing at the end of WW2, and since then, they have been largely able to channel their efforts almost exclusively into manufacturing, which being German, they have done extremely well.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
stuff and

The UK rebuilt rather than replaced its infrastructure. It was a necessity at the time, due to lack of funds, but it was costly in the long term.

Most importantly, much of the old ruling cadre in Germany was pushed to one side (Krupps notwithstanding) and new blood was introduced with new ideas. Despite the labour government of the brilliant Atlee, the old landowners retained much of their authority, power and in many case, money. We returned to pre war levels of business. The Germans, through no great effort on their behalf, had to start from new.

On top of that, we kept our forces at high strength for too long. Germany could not and had no need to, it was protected by the allies, all of whom pumped money into the country one way or the other. Had East Germany been part of it, they'd be even further ahead.

The difference between bosses and workers wasn't so pronounced in Germany. That helped no end.
Brilliant post, Dezza, lines up with my conclusions on the matter. UK bosses really like being over their underlings. New cash, new people, fresh start from scratch, and a loss that reminded them the old ways don't work meant a lot.

Pesty

42,655 posts

255 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Not paying their fare share to NATO helps


jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Pesty said:
Not paying their fare share to NATO helps
LOL. You are actually serious?


Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Nice article.
""There is a culture of business owners acknowledging and rewarding the efforts of the workforce," says Andreas Woergoetter, head of country studies at the OECD's economics department.

No wonder, then, that Germans work fewer hours than most."

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
There is very real parallels between the way the German economy and workforce are compared to the British and the way the two nations are on the football field in terms of how they relate to each other and organise to best meet the ability of the team and not individuals.

The thing they do very well is pay decent money to people doing decent jobs at a decent level to remove the necessity for people to chase promotions they don't particularly want or will be good for them or the company in order to maintain or increase their lifestyle. They totally avoid the daft Peter Principle bullst that riddles both UK and US corporate culture. The people who are in middle management in Germany are there generally because they want to be and are good middle managers, people people, good organisers or good project coordinators, not because they met the end of their tether asking for decent money as techs or shop floor workers.

glazbagun

14,259 posts

196 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Halb said:
Guvernator said:
Yep I've always wondered this, considering they lost not 1 but 2 world wars within the last 100 years and Britain were on the side of the victors, they seem to have done a hell of a lot better than we have over the intervening period!
Germany were gifted millions in aid (as opposed to interest rate loan the UK got), Germany was destroyed utterly and the Americans rebuilt her better than ever because she was needed, new everything, couple that with the stoic German mentality and you have a slow and steady recipe for success. UK as a victor had to carry the can, and was almost as badly fked, wealth squandered, couple that with a sort of crony capitalism where avarice and rapacity is lauded above all and you have a recipe for the modern UK. biggrin
And the way that we were still trying to prop up a failing empire whilst broke, whilst ze Germans had given up on any such pretentions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marsha...

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
quotequote all
Not sure if it has changed now, but from years ago when I was staying in Germany with relatives, the Germans seemed to have the attitude, that if something is not worth doing properly, and to the best of their ability, (and this includes all levels from shop floor worker, to management) it is probably not worth doing at all.