Uber and VAT

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Discussion

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
The campaign launches today, at 10pm

https://twitter.com/GoodLawProject/status/84384375...

So here it is

https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/uber/

Maugham wants to raise £75k to start the ball rolling by suing Uber in the high court to give him a receipt for a ride he took

A gizmo do article on the case too

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/meet-the-uk-barri...

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 20th March 22:18

PF62

3,575 posts

172 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
nyxster said:
VAT rules are fairly clearcut.

VAT has to be accounted for on chargeable products and services at every point of the supply chain. Regardless of whether uber describes itself as a digital service, agency or transport service it is liable to account for VAT on sales to the end customer when its turnover exceeds the threshold and regardless of the VAT status of its subcontractors or suppliers.
The Supreme Court decided that wasn't the situation with Secret Hotels 2 (Med Hotels owned by lastminute.com)
- https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2014/march/sup...

Centurion07

10,381 posts

246 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
quotequote all
I'm still with Uber. biggrin

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
quotequote all
An interesting tweet on the campaign by Wes Sweeting.... you know, MP, member of the Treasury Select Committee...

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/8441598926...


Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Tuesday 21st March 2017
quotequote all
JPJPJP said:
An interesting tweet on the campaign by Wes Sweeting.... you know, MP, member of the Treasury Select Committee...

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/8441598926...
I feel uneasy about this whole thing...

Crowd funding to sue someone, MPs cheering on someone doing something they probably ought to be doing themselves (if there was just cause).

Doesn't seem right.

The Moose

22,821 posts

208 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
quotequote all
The whole thing is bizarre and I can't get my head around exactly how it's going down right now, however I do believe that VAT shouldn't be payable on the fare. If it doesn't work in that way now, it wouldn't be difficult for uber to implement that.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
quotequote all
Yes, it seem weird that a private case of this nature is on the cards

Weird that HMRC is silent on the matter

And weird that an MP / Member of the Treasury select committee pledges to financially support the crowdfunding for the case "after pay day"

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/8441600230...

What's going on??

The Moose

22,821 posts

208 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
quotequote all
It doesn't surprise me that HMRC are staying quiet - that's what they're supposed to do!

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2017
quotequote all
JPJPJP said:
Some people with knowledge of the machinations of VAT laws are saying that a recently published UTT decision adds weight to the argument that VAT should be charged on Uber fares

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58c...

H/T to @DanNeidle on twitter who picks out a relevant paragraph

Whilst Dan is not a VAT specialist, I work with him on transactions occasionally where we share a tax role, and I have to say he is a really good practitioner.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
quotequote all
So far the crowdjustice case has raised £11,243 from 497 backers

There seems to be a bit of interest out there

https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/uber/

johnfm

13,668 posts

249 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
quotequote all
Alpinestars said:
JPJPJP said:
Some people with knowledge of the machinations of VAT laws are saying that a recently published UTT decision adds weight to the argument that VAT should be charged on Uber fares

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58c...

H/T to @DanNeidle on twitter who picks out a relevant paragraph

Whilst Dan is not a VAT specialist, I work with him on transactions occasionally where we share a tax role, and I have to say he is a really good practitioner.
Shameless namedropping....

wink

johnfm

13,668 posts

249 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
quotequote all
Do receipts from black cab drivers separate out the VAT? I cannot recall getting a VAT receipt the last time I used one.

The Moose

22,821 posts

208 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
quotequote all
johnfm said:
Do receipts from black cab drivers separate out the VAT? I cannot recall getting a VAT receipt the last time I used one.
That's not necessarily a fair (see what I did there wink ) comparison as generally they are hailed not booked.

I would agree that I have never been given a VAT receipt from a minicab I've booked however.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 23rd March 2017
quotequote all
Taxi services are standard rated for VAT so, where the required turnover threshold is reached, the supplier of the service has to be VAT registered

When you take a black cab / mini cab, the provider of the service might not be obvious to you: is it the driver, is it a mini cab firm? Moreover, it might not be obvious to you if the service provider should or should not be registered for VAT. So, your request for a VAT receipt (as opposed to a receipt), may meet with any from a variety of responses.

A minicab firm I use from time to time supplies a VAT invoice for every journey I take with them (based on its drivers being employees). A taxi driver that I have used reasonably frequently does not.

Anyway, here is a thread on a taxi driver's forum referring to a case from way back in 2009 when a taxi firm was found, by the VAT Tribunal, to owe VAT on the account customers it had done business with. It illustrates some key points about how VAT rules are applied to taxi services.

It is a short read! I don't know, without digging a bit, if the case was appealed or not

http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?...

The case that Maugham is making centres on the fact that he says Uber should be VAT registered, but appears not to be. The High Court will be the first stage in the process to judge that claim.

To draw a perfect parallel with the Bath Taxis case would be wrong, but it is about right to say that Maugham is saying that Uber is the principal in the relationship with riders and, as it turns over more than the threshold at which it must register for VAT, it should have done so, but appears not to have.

Maugham goes on to say that if his case is successful, then HMRC could rule that every fare collected by Uber for quite some time included VAT and that money is, therefore, owed to HMRC.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
If one of Maugham's objectives was publicity (of which there is no doubt in my mind that it was), then he is doing quite well

Here he is on CNBC (front page at the time of posting)




https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/03/24/uber-taxes-vat...

essayer

9,011 posts

193 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
That's Travis Kalanick, Uber boss hehe

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
JPJPJP said:
If one of Maugham's objectives was publicity ...
One of?

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
johnfm said:
Do receipts from black cab drivers separate out the VAT? I cannot recall getting a VAT receipt the last time I used one.
This is the crux of the point. Individuals who are self employed need to exceed the VAT turnover threshold. If you spread income over enough businesses (self employed people), so that the individual self employed business don't exceed the threshold, there's no VAT. "Consolidate" the income onto Uber ltd/BV etc (because drivers are deemed to be employees), and the threshold is exceeded and blows a huge hole in the business model.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
One of?
Also "If" was pretty superfluous in that post wasn't it?!

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Saturday 25th March 2017
quotequote all
Well over 50% funded now

Update: now over £50k of the £75k target

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 29th March 04:33