Brexit Celebrations

[SKP555]

ATG said:

That's right, because they've demonstrated they don't understand the strength of their own democratic system (which means they don't value it) nor do they understand how the EU actually operates.

It makes the UK look foolish in the eyes of anyone with the vaguest interest in economics and global politics. The outcome of the vote was met with a mixture of bemusement, shock and piss-taking from the overwhelming number of my friends and contacts overseas.

Or maybe we do understand it and have a different opinion of the merits of EU membership?

Your foreign friends and contacts having a limited understanding of British politics and a particular sense of humour might make you feel a bit awkward but it hardly constitutes a reason to stay in the EU. Are you just being a bit thin skinned?

[sidicks]

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

[Pan Pan Pan]

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Or democratic control of the 80% of the fish stocks in UK territorial waters, seized with no compensation being given when the UK joined the EEC?

[HughiusMaximus]

Looks like there is little difference between this thread, and http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... now!

[ATG]

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

That's right. We had democratic control of our immigration policy. We had complete control of immigration from outside the EU, and we'd made a democratic decision to allow free movement within the single market. There was no democratic deficit.

[Dindoit]

ATG said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

That's right. We had democratic control of our immigration policy. We had complete control of immigration from outside the EU, and we'd made a democratic decision to allow free movement within the single market. There was no democratic deficit.

Plus where we had 100% control over immigration we still had plenty arriving, moreso in fact than from EU. Market forces decided how many we needed and they will continue to do so long after we leave the EU.

[Hosenbugler]

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Plus of course the EU regulations over which national governments have imposed over their heads, with no ability to prevent such.

The EU is the opposite of our democracy, in the EU, the unelected make the laws, and the elected scrutinise them, here the elected make laws , the unelected scrutinise them. With QMV coming/already here and veto's gone/going, we are getting out in the nick of time.
A huge relief.

[sidicks]

ATG said:

That's right. We had democratic control of our immigration policy. We had complete control of immigration from outside the EU, and we'd made a democratic decision to allow free movement within the single market. There was no democratic deficit.

Seriously?

The only way we could excerpt 'control' over our EU immigration policy was to leave the EU. That's the 'democracy' that some people are talking about.

[ATG]

SKP555 said:

Or maybe we do understand it and have a different opinion of the merits of EU membership?

Your foreign friends and contacts having a limited understanding of British politics and a particular sense of humour might make you feel a bit awkward but it hardly constitutes a reason to stay in the EU. Are you just being a bit thin skinned?

Maybe, but I've seen damn all evidence to suggest that is the case.

You have no idea what my friends and contacts do our do not know about British politics, and you have no idea about their sense of humour. And did you really think I was saying we should have stayed in the EU to avoid embarrassment? Let me be clear; I think leaving the EU is a stupid idea. I cringe at the stupidity of it every time I think about it.

[ATG]

Hosenbugler said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Plus of course the EU regulations over which national governments have imposed over their heads, with no ability to prevent such.

The EU is the opposite of our democracy, in the EU, the unelected make the laws, and the elected scrutinise them, here the elected make laws , the unelected scrutinise them. With QMV coming/already here and veto's gone/going, we are getting out in the nick of time.
A huge relief.

Thank you for illustrating the ignorance I was describing.

[Hosenbugler]

ATG said:

Hosenbugler said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Plus of course the EU regulations over which national governments have imposed over their heads, with no ability to prevent such.

The EU is the opposite of our democracy, in the EU, the unelected make the laws, and the elected scrutinise them, here the elected make laws , the unelected scrutinise them. With QMV coming/already here and veto's gone/going, we are getting out in the nick of time.
A huge relief.

Thank you for illustrating the ignorance I was describing.

I'm correct in all that I wrote , you are the ignorant.

[ATG]

sidicks said:

ATG said:

That's right. We had democratic control of our immigration policy. We had complete control of immigration from outside the EU, and we'd made a democratic decision to allow free movement within the single market. There was no democratic deficit.

Seriously?

The only way we could excerpt 'control' over our EU immigration policy was to leave the EU. That's the 'democracy' that some people are talking about.

Yes, seriously.

When we chose to sign up to the single market, free movement was part of the deal.

There is nothing undemocratic about not being allowed to pick and choose which bits of the deal we adhere to in the future. We were free to try to renegotiate, we were free to withdraw completely.

There was no democratic deficit.

[Einion Yrth]

ATG said:

we, we were free to withdraw completely.

Which is what we are doing, so what are you whining about?

[SKP555]

ATG said:

Maybe, but I've seen damn all evidence to suggest that is the case.

You have no idea what my friends and contacts do our do not know about British politics, and you have no idea about their sense of humour. And did you really think I was saying we should have stayed in the EU to avoid embarrassment? Let me be clear; I think leaving the EU is a stupid idea. I cringe at the stupidity of it every time I think about it.

Well if they are shocked and bemused about the decision to leave they obviously don't know a whole lot. It's been in the offing for years.

I know nothing of their/your humour, it might be great.

I just find embarrassment a curious feeling in relation to Brexit.

[sidicks]

ATG said:

Yes, seriously.

When we chose to sign up to the single market, free movement was part of the deal.

There is nothing undemocratic about not being allowed to pick and choose which bits of the deal we adhere to in the future. We were free to try to renegotiate, we were free to withdraw completely.

There was no democratic deficit.

We?

You mean that a previous generation decided to vote to join a trading block, quite different to what the EU has become.

The only way your 'democratic deficit' comments makes any real sense, if we had a regular referendum (every 4 years) to determine whether 'we' were still prepared to abide by those rules.

[///ajd]

Hosenbugler said:

ATG said:

Hosenbugler said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Plus of course the EU regulations over which national governments have imposed over their heads, with no ability to prevent such.

The EU is the opposite of our democracy, in the EU, the unelected make the laws, and the elected scrutinise them, here the elected make laws , the unelected scrutinise them. With QMV coming/already here and veto's gone/going, we are getting out in the nick of time.
A huge relief.

Thank you for illustrating the ignorance I was describing.

I'm correct in all that I wrote , you are the ignorant.

I can understand exactly what ATG means, I have had the same experience.

Do you really think you come across as smarter than ATG in the exchange above?

[Sway]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Jazzy Jag said:

No. But it could be in our supermarket because of a trade deal that benefits Germany and some other EU members but not the UK.

It could, or it could benefit the UK just as much as Germany and some other EU members.

The UK produces wine too.

Wine tariffs are very complicated.

Currently, the only one of the top five countries of origin by sales of wine is subject to tariffs - Australia.

Within the UK, this equates to a 15-20% increase in the cost of a bottle, in Germany this is closer to 25%, as it's not a flat percentage tariff, but instead a levy per 100l, so the local price isn't used. Currently, the levy is 32EUR/100l.

Source: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&a...

This is why Australia is keen for a similar wine only FTA with the EU (of which their biggest market within the EU is the UK) at the very least, although indications are they are also very keen on a comprehensive FTA with the UK upon Brexit - which means cheaper high quality beef for us too.

Source: http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-07/australia...

Note, I picked a source with vocal naysayers, but equally those naysayers have little evidence to support their assertions, especially compared to the evidence of a fast track bilateral working group...

[Hosenbugler]

///ajd said:

Hosenbugler said:

ATG said:

Hosenbugler said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Plus of course the EU regulations over which national governments have imposed over their heads, with no ability to prevent such.

The EU is the opposite of our democracy, in the EU, the unelected make the laws, and the elected scrutinise them, here the elected make laws , the unelected scrutinise them. With QMV coming/already here and veto's gone/going, we are getting out in the nick of time.
A huge relief.

Thank you for illustrating the ignorance I was describing.

I'm correct in all that I wrote , you are the ignorant.

I can understand exactly what ATG means, I have had the same experience.

Do you really think you come across as smarter than ATG in the exchange above?

Who cares, I have better things to do than argue the toss with the plainly ignorant. Incidentally, Article 50 is to be triggered on the 29th coming, great news eh?

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-t...

[Jinx]

ATG said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

That's right. We had democratic control of our immigration policy. We had complete control of immigration from outside the EU, and we'd made a democratic decision to allow free movement within the single market. There was no democratic deficit.

And all we did was exercise our democratic decision processes last June 23rd.

[jonnyb]

///ajd said:

Hosenbugler said:

ATG said:

Hosenbugler said:

sidicks said:

ATG said:

We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Like 'democratic control' of our immigration policy you mean?

Plus of course the EU regulations over which national governments have imposed over their heads, with no ability to prevent such.

The EU is the opposite of our democracy, in the EU, the unelected make the laws, and the elected scrutinise them, here the elected make laws , the unelected scrutinise them. With QMV coming/already here and veto's gone/going, we are getting out in the nick of time.
A huge relief.

Thank you for illustrating the ignorance I was describing.

I'm correct in all that I wrote , you are the ignorant.

I can understand exactly what ATG means, I have had the same experience.

Do you really think you come across as smarter than ATG in the exchange above?

I would agree. Every exchange I have had with people who have voted to leave has shown a fundamental lack of understanding of EU democracy.
The fact that the EU institutions are more democratic than our own comes as a shock to most.