Brexit Celebrations
Discussion
sidicks said:
jonnyb said:
And you have shown a complete lack of understanding, but let's try again.
Here's the situation in the U.K.
A directly elected primary chamber (we will come to how in a bit), the biggest party in that chamber forms a government, the government then issues policy's for the civil service to write into law, the civil service then send these back to the government to set before Parliament. Parliament amends or not the act, then sends it to the second chamber, totally unelected, some of it based on religious grounds, and hereditary grounds, some of it appointed. The Act then gets bounced back and forth until a consensus can be reached. The Act is then passed to a totally unelected, unappointed, head of state for ratification. It then becomes law. Or if you can't be bothered with all of that you just issue a statutory instrument and completely bypass any oversight (which is how the majority of things are done).
To top this, how we get out elected chamber is worthy of mention. First past the post. If I were a labour voter in Mrs Mays constituency for how much would my vote count? If I were a conservative voter in Leeds let's say, would my voice be heard? First past the post disenfranchises large sections of the population and leaves them with a vote that counts for nothing and no voice.
Contrast that with the EU
EU commission proposes laws, the commission is made up of people appointed by the elected representatives of member states, and is overseen in its entirety by the directly elected parliament. It's the comissions job to interpret EU policy, much the same as our own civil service.
The laws are then sent to the Council of ministers and the EU Parliment, the EU Council is made up of directly elected representatives of member states, the Parliment is directly elected by us, the EU Population. The law is then sent back and forth until consensus is reached or the law is abandoned. If consensus is reached the law is enacted. At every stage the law has to be passed by either someone who has been appointed by a directly elected representative, or a directly elected representative themselves.
In addition the EU Parliment is elected by proportional representation ensuring everyone gets as equal a voice as possible.
Do you see where our version falls down and the EUs stands up?
To top all this the EU is an international body, not a state as such. And is therefore way more democratic than any other international body. We as a state, should hold ourselves to a higher degree of democracy than an international body, unfortunately we fall far short.
As said before, we are leaving, if you like the EU so much surely you'll be moving there to live and work...??Here's the situation in the U.K.
A directly elected primary chamber (we will come to how in a bit), the biggest party in that chamber forms a government, the government then issues policy's for the civil service to write into law, the civil service then send these back to the government to set before Parliament. Parliament amends or not the act, then sends it to the second chamber, totally unelected, some of it based on religious grounds, and hereditary grounds, some of it appointed. The Act then gets bounced back and forth until a consensus can be reached. The Act is then passed to a totally unelected, unappointed, head of state for ratification. It then becomes law. Or if you can't be bothered with all of that you just issue a statutory instrument and completely bypass any oversight (which is how the majority of things are done).
To top this, how we get out elected chamber is worthy of mention. First past the post. If I were a labour voter in Mrs Mays constituency for how much would my vote count? If I were a conservative voter in Leeds let's say, would my voice be heard? First past the post disenfranchises large sections of the population and leaves them with a vote that counts for nothing and no voice.
Contrast that with the EU
EU commission proposes laws, the commission is made up of people appointed by the elected representatives of member states, and is overseen in its entirety by the directly elected parliament. It's the comissions job to interpret EU policy, much the same as our own civil service.
The laws are then sent to the Council of ministers and the EU Parliment, the EU Council is made up of directly elected representatives of member states, the Parliment is directly elected by us, the EU Population. The law is then sent back and forth until consensus is reached or the law is abandoned. If consensus is reached the law is enacted. At every stage the law has to be passed by either someone who has been appointed by a directly elected representative, or a directly elected representative themselves.
In addition the EU Parliment is elected by proportional representation ensuring everyone gets as equal a voice as possible.
Do you see where our version falls down and the EUs stands up?
To top all this the EU is an international body, not a state as such. And is therefore way more democratic than any other international body. We as a state, should hold ourselves to a higher degree of democracy than an international body, unfortunately we fall far short.
sidicks said:
jonnyb said:
Personally, I'm more in favour of regulation. In my opinion the EU should be a state in its own right and should be governed as such.
I am a federalist.
So you'll be heading to the EU to live once we've left?I am a federalist.
The UK Civil Service are professionals, and apolitical. The Commission aren't.
Besides, the fundamental crux of this us why should a voter in the European Elections in Luxembourg have a greater say than a voter in Greece?
You're not actually responding to any of the points raised, just repeating the same rhetoric such as the anti-monarchy stance without any basis for it being a barrier to democracy in the last 300 years...
Besides, the fundamental crux of this us why should a voter in the European Elections in Luxembourg have a greater say than a voter in Greece?
You're not actually responding to any of the points raised, just repeating the same rhetoric such as the anti-monarchy stance without any basis for it being a barrier to democracy in the last 300 years...
jonnyb said:
No, I will be fighting and campaigning to take us back in. It took Farage about 20 years to get us out, I'm in it for the long haul.
You can't think the EU is that great if you'd rather live here than move there! Perhaps your efforts would be better spent adding value to the UK.Which party do you think will be campaigning to take the UK back into the EU?
sidicks said:
You can't think the EU is that great if you'd rather live here than move there! Perhaps your efforts would be better spent adding value to the UK.
Which party do you think will be campaigning to take the UK back into the EU?
There is no logic in that at all. A referendum outcome one way or the other does not preclude debate on either side. Were that the case, there would be no opposition party in Parliament after each general election - you lost, might as well go home for five years & let us get on with it. Which party do you think will be campaigning to take the UK back into the EU?
It's a nonsense to to suggest one should leave, sixth form politics that would embarrass any self respecting sixth former.
Although I fully concede one may make the argument there is currently no opposition in Parliament.
Edwin Strohacker said:
There is no logic in that at all. A referendum outcome one way or the other does not preclude debate on either side. Were that the case, there would be no opposition party in Parliament after each general election - you lost, might as well go home for five years & let us get on with it.
It's a nonsense to to suggest one should leave, sixth form politics that would embarrass any self respecting sixth former.
Although I fully concede one may make the argument there is currently no opposition in Parliament.
Of course, 'debate' is one thing - however, suggesting they will be campaigning for up to 20 years seems somewhat futile, particular when the 'nirvana' they seemingly desire is apparently so readily accessible just across the channel...It's a nonsense to to suggest one should leave, sixth form politics that would embarrass any self respecting sixth former.
Although I fully concede one may make the argument there is currently no opposition in Parliament.
Sway said:
The UK Civil Service are professionals, and apolitical. The Commission aren't.
Besides, the fundamental crux of this us why should a voter in the European Elections in Luxembourg have a greater say than a voter in Greece?
You're not actually responding to any of the points raised, just repeating the same rhetoric such as the anti-monarchy stance without any basis for it being a barrier to democracy in the last 300 years...
No, the fundamental crux of the matter are why should a voter an a marginal constituency have more say than a voter in a safe seat? Besides, the fundamental crux of this us why should a voter in the European Elections in Luxembourg have a greater say than a voter in Greece?
You're not actually responding to any of the points raised, just repeating the same rhetoric such as the anti-monarchy stance without any basis for it being a barrier to democracy in the last 300 years...
Why should an unelected/unappointed head of state have any say in our democracy what so ever?
You keep reiterating this pro hereditary rubbish that has destroyed democracy in this country for 2000 years.
jonnyb said:
No, the fundamental crux of the matter are why should a voter an a marginal constituency have more say than a voter in a safe seat?
Why should an unelected/unappointed head of state have any say in our democracy what so ever?
You keep reiterating this pro hereditary rubbish that has destroyed democracy in this country for 2000 years.
What campaigning have you done about "this hereditary rubbish that has destroyed democracy for 2000 years"?Why should an unelected/unappointed head of state have any say in our democracy what so ever?
You keep reiterating this pro hereditary rubbish that has destroyed democracy in this country for 2000 years.
sidicks said:
Of course, 'debate' is one thing - however, suggesting they will be campaigning for up to 20 years seems somewhat futile, particular when the 'nirvana' they seemingly desire is apparently so readily accessible just across the channel...
Why not? Farage made a career out of the opposite & I don't recall anyone telling him to move to Kazakhstan where they don't have that EU. More to the point, assuming everyone is a grown up, the 'If you don't like it why don't you p
s off' argument is beneath everyone, so I'm suggesting a more edifying spectacle would be to engage on substantive issues. You are of course, free to take it or leave it, however, the logical end point is that so is anyone you suggest should get out. God bless a democratic society, therefore.Edwin Strohacker said:
Why not? Farage made a career out of the opposite & I don't recall anyone telling him to move to Kazakhstan where they don't have that EU.
1. Kazakhstan and France are somewhat different, in numerous ways.2. is he seriously suggesting making a career out of his campaigning?
He appears to be just another sore loser who won't put his money where his mouth is!
Edwin Strohacker said:
More to the point, assuming everyone is a grown up, the 'If you don't like it why don't you ps off' argument is beneath everyone, so I'm suggesting a more edifying spectacle would be to engage on substantive issues. You are of course, free to take it or leave it, however, the logical end point is that so is anyone you suggest should get out. God bless a democratic society, therefore.
'Engage on substantive issues'? Is there where the Remainers claim that anyone who voted for Brexit is stupid?s off' argument is beneath everyone, so I'm suggesting a more edifying spectacle would be to engage on substantive issues. You are of course, free to take it or leave it, however, the logical end point is that so is anyone you suggest should get out. God bless a democratic society, therefore.Whilst the exchanges on the matter of Brexit can be interesting, the bottom line is that after over 40 years of membership the EEC/EU was not able to demonstrate, or convince the majority of the voting public in the UK that membership of the EU was good for them.
Bearing in mind that not a single person in the UK has ever, or was ever allowed to vote on whether or not they wanted to be in the EU in the first place.
In 1975 the UK public was given a vote on whether or not, they wanted to be in a European wide trading bloc known as the EEC. (The UK should have been given a further membership referendum when the EEC took the fundamental step of turning itself into the EU), on information so limited, it makes the information available for those voting in the 2016 referendum look like nuclear grade overkill.
Given all the whinging and both political, and legal machinations following the 2016 Brexit vote, it may that our membership of the EEC/EU was illegal right from 1975 anyway. In 1975 people just accepted the result of the 1975 vote, but given the way the EEC later turned itself into the EU, without the endorsement of the UK citizen, has seriously reduced its legitimacy in the minds of many UK citizens. So far the UK citizen has only been given two votes regarding EEC/EU membership, one in 1975 when they voted in, and one in 2016 when they voted out. Votes on the various treaties etc by the various UK governments in the interim, do not count as a democratic vote from the people of the UK, only as a decision made specifically by the various governments in power at the time. the two are not the same thing.
Bearing in mind that not a single person in the UK has ever, or was ever allowed to vote on whether or not they wanted to be in the EU in the first place.
In 1975 the UK public was given a vote on whether or not, they wanted to be in a European wide trading bloc known as the EEC. (The UK should have been given a further membership referendum when the EEC took the fundamental step of turning itself into the EU), on information so limited, it makes the information available for those voting in the 2016 referendum look like nuclear grade overkill.
Given all the whinging and both political, and legal machinations following the 2016 Brexit vote, it may that our membership of the EEC/EU was illegal right from 1975 anyway. In 1975 people just accepted the result of the 1975 vote, but given the way the EEC later turned itself into the EU, without the endorsement of the UK citizen, has seriously reduced its legitimacy in the minds of many UK citizens. So far the UK citizen has only been given two votes regarding EEC/EU membership, one in 1975 when they voted in, and one in 2016 when they voted out. Votes on the various treaties etc by the various UK governments in the interim, do not count as a democratic vote from the people of the UK, only as a decision made specifically by the various governments in power at the time. the two are not the same thing.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Tuesday 21st March 09:50
jonnyb said:
sidicks said:
jonnyb said:
Personally, I'm more in favour of regulation. In my opinion the EU should be a state in its own right and should be governed as such.
I am a federalist.
So you'll be heading to the EU to live once we've left?I am a federalist.
jonnyb said:
Sway said:
The UK Civil Service are professionals, and apolitical. The Commission aren't.
Besides, the fundamental crux of this us why should a voter in the European Elections in Luxembourg have a greater say than a voter in Greece?
You're not actually responding to any of the points raised, just repeating the same rhetoric such as the anti-monarchy stance without any basis for it being a barrier to democracy in the last 300 years...
No, the fundamental crux of the matter are why should a voter an a marginal constituency have more say than a voter in a safe seat? Besides, the fundamental crux of this us why should a voter in the European Elections in Luxembourg have a greater say than a voter in Greece?
You're not actually responding to any of the points raised, just repeating the same rhetoric such as the anti-monarchy stance without any basis for it being a barrier to democracy in the last 300 years...
Why should an unelected/unappointed head of state have any say in our democracy what so ever?
You keep reiterating this pro hereditary rubbish that has destroyed democracy in this country for 2000 years.
Yet you're still happy that a Luxembourg voter has more say than a Greek one within Europe.
That's cognitive dissonance in action. You're criticising the very premise you're supporting in another context.
Ayahuasca said:
TTwiggy said:
The only political decisions that should result in street parties are armistices.
What about victories? Like VE and VJ Day ? Them too?For clarity, I feel both should be celebrated where the war was just and/or won with as little loss of life as possible.
Given some peoples wish to use the law to block Brexit, I wonder if it would be possible to launch a Gina Miller style court action, on whether or not, the UK`s membership of the EU was even legal from 1993?
The UK voted in 1975 to join the EEC, it has never been given a vote on whether or not, its people wanted to be a member of the EU.
If it was found to have been illegal, perhaps the EU could hand back the billions of pounds of taxpayers cash it has taken off the UK since 1993, and the billions of tons of fish it has taken from UK territorial waters for a start?
and pay reparation for running a trade surplus with the UK for almost all of the 23 years since the UK was sucked without a vote, into the EU?
The UK voted in 1975 to join the EEC, it has never been given a vote on whether or not, its people wanted to be a member of the EU.
If it was found to have been illegal, perhaps the EU could hand back the billions of pounds of taxpayers cash it has taken off the UK since 1993, and the billions of tons of fish it has taken from UK territorial waters for a start?
and pay reparation for running a trade surplus with the UK for almost all of the 23 years since the UK was sucked without a vote, into the EU? Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff