Brexit Celebrations
Discussion
Zetec
Ok here we are. My made up figures were surprisingly accurate.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-unite...
(About half way down)
Sovereignty was by far the biggest driver of the leave vote, well ahead of even immigration.
Just under one in five (17%) said their main reason was that the UK would “become more isolated from its friends and neighbours”, and fewer than one in ten (9%) said it was “a strong attachment to the EU and its shared history, culture and traditions.”
So 9% of Remain voters, which is a smidge over 4% of those who voted.
I suspect as those young people age they will realise that having control of who makes decisions and how, and the ability to hold them to account offers a far better chance of a good standard of living than any trade deal ever will.
Why see it as a slap in the face?
It's not (for me anyway) about laughing at people who are worried abouf their job or about saying we won you lost. It's about building a unifying vision for what we do after this now that the decision is made.
Ok here we are. My made up figures were surprisingly accurate.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-unite...
(About half way down)
Sovereignty was by far the biggest driver of the leave vote, well ahead of even immigration.
Just under one in five (17%) said their main reason was that the UK would “become more isolated from its friends and neighbours”, and fewer than one in ten (9%) said it was “a strong attachment to the EU and its shared history, culture and traditions.”
So 9% of Remain voters, which is a smidge over 4% of those who voted.
I suspect as those young people age they will realise that having control of who makes decisions and how, and the ability to hold them to account offers a far better chance of a good standard of living than any trade deal ever will.
Why see it as a slap in the face?
It's not (for me anyway) about laughing at people who are worried abouf their job or about saying we won you lost. It's about building a unifying vision for what we do after this now that the decision is made.
SKP555 said:
Zetec
Ok here we are. My made up figures were surprisingly accurate.
Good guess Ok here we are. My made up figures were surprisingly accurate.
SKP555 said:
I suspect as those young people age they will realise that having control of who makes decisions and how, and the ability to hold them to account offers a far better chance of a good standard of living than any trade deal ever will.
Perhaps, but they can see no cause for celebration now.SKP555 said:
Why see it as a slap in the face?
It's not (for me anyway) about laughing at people who are worried abouf their job or about saying we won you lost. It's about building a unifying vision for what we do after this now that the decision is made.
Imagine if you worked for a large company who announced a big round of redundancies. And after the announcement they said something along the lines of "we know it's a difficult time, but we all need to work together to help make the company stronger. We hope you'll all join us later for the company bbq" It's not (for me anyway) about laughing at people who are worried abouf their job or about saying we won you lost. It's about building a unifying vision for what we do after this now that the decision is made.
Scotland leaving won't dampen my enthusiasm at all. It will be sad in a way but the divergence between politics north and south of the border is nearly impossible to reconcile in or out of the EU.
If they figure that their deep fried bread is buttered on that side then so be it.
If there is a chance to save the union it lies not in an uneasy half way out compromise with the EU but in a sensible and consistent settlement within the UK which is fair to everyone.
If they figure that their deep fried bread is buttered on that side then so be it.
If there is a chance to save the union it lies not in an uneasy half way out compromise with the EU but in a sensible and consistent settlement within the UK which is fair to everyone.
Zetec-S said:
Imagine if you worked for a large company who announced a big round of redundancies. And after the announcement they said something along the lines of "we know it's a difficult time, but we all need to work together to help make the company stronger. We hope you'll all join us later for the company bbq"
Well you know what?If the alternative is the company going bust and everyone being unemployed, and I'm getting a pay out, why the hell not go to the bbq?
Keep on good terms, and go back as a contractor on better money when things pick up.
(I also might just like beer and bbqs. It's Aruban flag day tomorrow, if anyone fancies it?)
SKP555 said:
Zetec-S said:
Imagine if you worked for a large company who announced a big round of redundancies. And after the announcement they said something along the lines of "we know it's a difficult time, but we all need to work together to help make the company stronger. We hope you'll all join us later for the company bbq"
Well you know what?If the alternative is the company going bust and everyone being unemployed, and I'm getting a pay out, why the hell not go to the bbq?
Keep on good terms, and go back as a contractor on better money when things pick up.
(I also might just like beer and bbqs. It's Aruban flag day tomorrow, if anyone fancies it?)
Fair enoughVocal Minority said:
To all those calling remainers bad losers - you can't paint all 16 point something million with the same brush. Some students, gobby oiks and legal types looking to further their career.
Let's not forget that petition that was hijacked about at lest 60% of the vote being required to be binding - was started as a hedge against losing by a leave supporter! I dare say there would have been decent support behind it from whichever side lost
The moral of the story here is that - not all brexiteers are bad losers, not all remainers are bad losers. When you have a group of 16 or 17 million people, an amount of both will inevitably be gobby, bad losers.
We'd have heard from that group regardless.
Seriously - stop talking about 'remainers being bad losers' like its all 16 million - its really silly. I know a roughly 50/50 split of remainers/leavers, I dare say like most. Some of which are very harcore in each camp. They have all been gracious to a fault.
Anyway, moving on.
A fully respect the decision. It has been made. As do the vast majority of people who voted remain.
But to believe any sort of celebration would be anything other than a victory lap for people who think it is the right decision is a bit naïve in my opinion.
I certainly wouldn't take part, because I don't believe it was the right decision. I wouldn't stop you having your own personal street party (I sense you will be!) - hope you enjoy yourself. But as a national event in the name of unity? Really?
(as I by the by to people still moaning about bitter remainers - I think a lot more people 'accept' the decision than you think - as in realise its the will of the people and wont resist. But I do sometimes wonder whether some think acceptance means remainers should back down totally and say they were wrong to vote remain - and that anything else is like some sort of wilful resistance - and THATS why you're cross.
Well said.Let's not forget that petition that was hijacked about at lest 60% of the vote being required to be binding - was started as a hedge against losing by a leave supporter! I dare say there would have been decent support behind it from whichever side lost
The moral of the story here is that - not all brexiteers are bad losers, not all remainers are bad losers. When you have a group of 16 or 17 million people, an amount of both will inevitably be gobby, bad losers.
We'd have heard from that group regardless.
Seriously - stop talking about 'remainers being bad losers' like its all 16 million - its really silly. I know a roughly 50/50 split of remainers/leavers, I dare say like most. Some of which are very harcore in each camp. They have all been gracious to a fault.
Anyway, moving on.
SKP555 said:
A more complete answer...
It's the fact thay it's contentious which gives it it's significance.
I don't think anyone is denying its significance. However, your vision of some sort of unifying last night of the proms style celebration won't happen because of that contentiousness. It would be a victory lap for people who think its right.It's the fact thay it's contentious which gives it it's significance.
SKP555 said:
It would have been easier and less risky to simply have stayed where we were, and been subsumed into the declining European project.
People chose to vote leave in spite of the upheaval and the risk, and largely people did so out of a belief in self determination and democratic government. Even if you are one of those who didn't want the difficulties this may throw up in the short term or who puts these things lower down your list of priorities than stability and immediate prosperity, it is a courageous and principled decision.
Look at it like packing in your comfortable 9-5 job which has paid your bills for 20 years because it was destroying your soul.
Further, I believe this makes the opposition to leaving ultimately hollow and short term. The only really strong arguments to remain centred on the disruption leaving could cause to trade, travel, visa arrangements etc. They were a powerful argument for not changing anything but after leaving they will never be any aort of argument for rejoining.
For that you would need an ideological and emotional commitment to the EU and that is something that barely seems to exist in this country in the way it does on the continent. And even amongst those who do hold such a view it's not axiomatic that Britain should be a part of it.
This will fade away very quickly and I am confident that in 10 years time there will be no more question of Britain joining the EU than there is of us joining the Eurozone.
Lastly, this will not go away.
Even if the government decides to can the whole thing tomorrow we won't be back to where we were before the referendum. We would be a proven reluctant member of a deeply unpopular EU whose electorate had been betrayed and whose democracy was a laughing stock.
So whatever you thought was the best course of action last summer the important thing now is to make the absolute best of what happens next, not attempt some apologetic damage limitation exercise or hope it will all go away. Scanning the polls for signs of Bregret that never come or manufacturing spikes in "hate crimes" in the hope that a tenuous connection with racism will discredit the whole venture.
If not Brexit, support self determination and democracy with enthusiasm because it's the best chance we have of making it work.
And that's fine. You've stated what you believe and why you voted pretty eloquently and more power to you (literally in this case!) People chose to vote leave in spite of the upheaval and the risk, and largely people did so out of a belief in self determination and democratic government. Even if you are one of those who didn't want the difficulties this may throw up in the short term or who puts these things lower down your list of priorities than stability and immediate prosperity, it is a courageous and principled decision.
Look at it like packing in your comfortable 9-5 job which has paid your bills for 20 years because it was destroying your soul.
Further, I believe this makes the opposition to leaving ultimately hollow and short term. The only really strong arguments to remain centred on the disruption leaving could cause to trade, travel, visa arrangements etc. They were a powerful argument for not changing anything but after leaving they will never be any aort of argument for rejoining.
For that you would need an ideological and emotional commitment to the EU and that is something that barely seems to exist in this country in the way it does on the continent. And even amongst those who do hold such a view it's not axiomatic that Britain should be a part of it.
This will fade away very quickly and I am confident that in 10 years time there will be no more question of Britain joining the EU than there is of us joining the Eurozone.
Lastly, this will not go away.
Even if the government decides to can the whole thing tomorrow we won't be back to where we were before the referendum. We would be a proven reluctant member of a deeply unpopular EU whose electorate had been betrayed and whose democracy was a laughing stock.
So whatever you thought was the best course of action last summer the important thing now is to make the absolute best of what happens next, not attempt some apologetic damage limitation exercise or hope it will all go away. Scanning the polls for signs of Bregret that never come or manufacturing spikes in "hate crimes" in the hope that a tenuous connection with racism will discredit the whole venture.
If not Brexit, support self determination and democracy with enthusiasm because it's the best chance we have of making it work.
A fully respect the decision. It has been made. As do the vast majority of people who voted remain.
But to believe any sort of celebration would be anything other than a victory lap for people who think it is the right decision is a bit naïve in my opinion.
I certainly wouldn't take part, because I don't believe it was the right decision. I wouldn't stop you having your own personal street party (I sense you will be!) - hope you enjoy yourself. But as a national event in the name of unity? Really?
(as I by the by to people still moaning about bitter remainers - I think a lot more people 'accept' the decision than you think - as in realise its the will of the people and wont resist. But I do sometimes wonder whether some think acceptance means remainers should back down totally and say they were wrong to vote remain - and that anything else is like some sort of wilful resistance - and THATS why you're cross.
I hope for all the people of the UK (both born here and who have come here to improve their lives) that the exit will turn out to be the right choice.
esxste said:
Kermit power said:
I was ambivalent on Brexit - I figured there are far greater issues to address, and with many of them, the government needlessly blamed the EU just because it avoided them having to take uncomfortable decisions about things - but if it results in us finally getting shot of the whinging, scrounging millstone round our necks that is Scotland, I'll happily join the OP for his street party! 
Why stop there?Why not let the Welsh and Cornish swan off too?
And there's the case that London might as well be it's own country.
SKP555 said:
As I said above, but TLDR:
The decision to leave is cause for celebration on itself.
The best chance of making it work is full and enthusiastic support.
In your opinion.The decision to leave is cause for celebration on itself.
The best chance of making it work is full and enthusiastic support.
I'd say that the decision to leave is a national embarrassment.
And this call for enthusiasm is just silly. What difference is my attitude to Brexit going to make? I'm not negotiating the exit terms. I'm working flat out already. I'm already paying my taxes. What else are you expecting? Try spelling out in concrete terms what my enthusiasm for Brexit would add.
In your "let's just do it" piece earlier you tried to link a whole load of unrelated stuff together. Why? What on Earth has HoL reform got to do with Brexit? If you want HoL reform, campaign for it. Similarly what had a Bill of Rights got to do with Brexit?? If you want one, campaign for it. Neither will be any easier, or desirable, as a result of Brexit. You didn't need Brexit to achieve those ends.
I get that you think the EU was a threat to our autonomy and self-determination, but I think that fear was completely unjustified. "Take back control" was a fiction.
I feel certain, now that Project Fear has been proved to be an exercise in scaring those ignorant of or unwilling to look deeper into the matter, the overall will for leaving the EU would now be even greater. I'm sure in time, it will be seen as a matter of national pride with the majority of the population.
No one can accurately predict how the next 2 years turn out and after that the 5 to 10 year period following whatever deal they arrive at, and especially against an unknown alternative history that will now not happen.
There is nothing to celebrate until the exit deal is agreed (assuming it is a good amicable one), or hopefully prior to that a deal on citizens residency rights. The later will certainly be worth celebrating, if your an EU citizen here or have one in your family then you will certainly be celebrating that day.
There is nothing to celebrate until the exit deal is agreed (assuming it is a good amicable one), or hopefully prior to that a deal on citizens residency rights. The later will certainly be worth celebrating, if your an EU citizen here or have one in your family then you will certainly be celebrating that day.
Guybrush said:
I feel certain, now that Project Fear has been proved to be an exercise in scaring those ignorant of or unwilling to look deeper into the matter, the overall will for leaving the EU would now be even greater. I'm sure in time, it will be seen as a matter of national pride with the majority of the population.
Thats how I see it, and I am fully expecting project fear 2 once negotiations are underway and the terms of brexit are known. Im sure we were supposed to be in a deep recession by now? SKP555 said:
ATG
Why are you embarrassed that people wanted democratic control? Embarrassed in front of who?
I don't find the outcome embarrassing, and ultimately I think history will just show is to be the first nation to leave a project that has been doomed since the introduction of the Euro without political union, but I do find many of people's reasons for voting rather embarrassing, as they suggest that I live in a country with many people incapable of actually researching their own facts before taking a decision.Why are you embarrassed that people wanted democratic control? Embarrassed in front of who?
One huge positive to come out of it is that our national politicians will no longer have the usually utterly untrue excuse of "we'd like to do something different here, but EU law won't let us".
esxste said:
It's an unwelcome, but pleasurably ironic thought; imagining the faces of proud Brexiters. Proudly voting leave in the expectation of a revival in the British Empire; only instead being served little England.
I don't know anyone who wants to revive the Empire. But I can spot a snidey anti-English wail when I see one.Would you be happy to know that 'Little England' would still be a member of the G7, still a permanent member of the UN security Council, still a nuclear power, still a power in world sport and science?
Probably not.
FF
SKP555 said:
So much to celebrate and celebration season is fast approaching.
Anyone have any plans either for this year or on going? And when?
June 23rd to celebrate the referendum?
The day Article 50 notice is given?
The day we finally complete negotiations?
Nigel Farage's birthday?
All of the above?
Anyone have any plans either for this year or on going? And when?
June 23rd to celebrate the referendum?
The day Article 50 notice is given?
The day we finally complete negotiations?
Nigel Farage's birthday?
All of the above?
The Frankfurt /Paris Chamber of commerce & SNP will certainly be celebrating the above.
Kermit power said:
SKP555 said:
ATG
Why are you embarrassed that people wanted democratic control? Embarrassed in front of who?
I don't find the outcome embarrassing, and ultimately I think history will just show is to be the first nation to leave a project that has been doomed since the introduction of the Euro without political union, but I do find many of people's reasons for voting rather embarrassing, as they suggest that I live in a country with many people incapable of actually researching their own facts before taking a decision.Why are you embarrassed that people wanted democratic control? Embarrassed in front of who?
One huge positive to come out of it is that our national politicians will no longer have the usually utterly untrue excuse of "we'd like to do something different here, but EU law won't let us".
Pan Pan Pan said:
I started out wanting the UK to remain part of the EU, but the more research I did into the relationship between the UK and EU since the UK joined the EEC, the more I realized that the UK needed to get out of the EU as fast as it possibly could. It seemed to me, that the only people in the UK who could vote remain, are the limited number of UK nationals who have managed to squeeze their noses into the EU trough, and want to keep them there, at the expense of all the other people in the UK, or those people who for whatever reason simply do not like the UK.
Why is this a constant theme for the brexiteers-that the only people who knew what they were voting on was those who voted to leave? Or that the brexiteers are the only ones not somehow with their noses in the trough-or that they are the only ones that like their country?Kermit power said:
I don't find the outcome embarrassing, and ultimately I think history will just show is to be the first nation to leave a project that has been doomed since the introduction of the Euro without political union, but I do find many of people's reasons for voting rather embarrassing, as they suggest that I live in a country with many people incapable of actually researching their own facts before taking a decision.
One huge positive to come out of it is that our national politicians will no longer have the usually utterly untrue excuse of "we'd like to do something different here, but EU law won't let us".
As per the Ashcroft polls above, far and away the biggest reason Leave voters cited for voting that way was to have decision making. A desire for self determination and democratic control aren't things to be embarrassed of. One huge positive to come out of it is that our national politicians will no longer have the usually utterly untrue excuse of "we'd like to do something different here, but EU law won't let us".
33% said controlling immigration which you could call bigotry or xenophobia, but you could also explain some of that as people defending their economic interests and quality of life, as per the main argument against leaving.
I can understand disagreeing, but don't get the embarrassment.
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