Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

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Tsubaki

55 posts

100 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
quotequote all
SBDJ said:
Greedydog said:
I don't know anyone who have ever said they feel more European than British.
Fluffnik. I will let you make your own decision as to what that tells you smile
One wonders if he feels more European than Scottish... perhaps he has replaced his breakfast can of Tennant's with a croissant and his evening meal of a bowl of chips, curry sauce and a deep fried mars bar with cassoulet? Presumably his furnishings are from Ikea....

... or perhaps he just has a pathological hatred of all things English and British?

Patrick Bateman

12,143 posts

173 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
quotequote all
If the EU was that important to previous no voters over the UK then you'd expect to see an obvious swing to yes in all the polls but this evidently isn't the case.

Rich_W

12,548 posts

211 months

Sunday 19th March 2017
quotequote all
It was her position (ergh!) on continuing to use the pound that made me laugh.

I though they had the "legal tender" Scottish pound?

But more than that. if somehow they did keep the GBP. Then if I was in Westminster I'd do everything I could to affect it's value to fk up Scotland laugh Since they would have no control whatsoever over it.

Bit like having the Euro....

I voted Brexit. I could see through the lies (on both sides of the argument) If Scotland voted to leave the UK I wouldn't lose any sleep. SNP is promising Utopia. And that's even less likely than £350M a week to the NHS. Though perhaps if we stop subsidising those north of the border than money COULD be sent to the NHS (no idea how much it is)

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
Rich_W said:
And that's even less likely than £350M a week to the NHS. Though perhaps if we stop subsidising those north of the border than money COULD be sent to the NHS (no idea how much it is)
£289m a week, so well on the way.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
davepoth said:
£289m a week, so well on the way.
The reduction in the size of the civil service will save a fair few pennies.

kowalski655

14,599 posts

142 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
jsf said:
The reduction in the size of the civil service will save a fair few pennies.
A good chunk of the UK wide civil service is based in Scotland,eg debt collection is done from Stornoway, some big tax offices too i think, so if Scotland did go, there may be more civil servants.

Of course all the civil servants from Scotland can then make up the new government, should be done in 3 days,for 50 groats and a crate of Irn Bru,if you believe the SNP.

fluffnik

20,156 posts

226 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
Greedydog said:
I don't know anyone who have ever said they feel more European than British.
wavey

When I was wee, we lived in South Wales for 3 years.

In the village, there were two English families, one Irish, my Scottish family, and everyone else was Welsh.

I don't think anyone was British anywhere but in their passport, and I've certainly never felt British.

I've been away from Aberdeen too long to feel properly Aberdonian...

Visiting North America made me feel very European, as does visiting mainland Europe.

In my experience, not that many people identify as British; it's usually town or county first, UK subdivision second.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
Raygun said:
If the SNP want to leave the UK because of Brexit what was the reason for the first referendum when we were still firmly in the EU?
Exactly, it was a bit rich of Sturgeon saying that Mays action may have sealed the fate of the Union, when all along it was Sturgeon and her cronies who have been trying to do that, since well before the first referendum on Scottish indendence.

If Sturgeon just wanted to break free of the union, her position would be understandable (at least in her eyes) but to want to break free of the union, but then want to hand control of Scotland over to Brussels (that is assuming the EU even exists in a few years time, and if so, that they even let Scotland join the queue for membership) seems to be a ludicrous position.

technodup

7,576 posts

129 months

Monday 20th March 2017
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While you're here fluffnik... I gather yesterday Sturgeon said she wants to keep the pound. I also gather Salmond suggested a new currency. But earlier in the week she said we'd be applying to the EU which would require some sort of commitment to the Euro.

Given this is probably the biggest issue that did for them last time, do you not think it wise that they get all their ducks in a row before sounding the starting gun on IndyRef2?

Because from where I'm sitting it looks like rank incompetence and desperation from a failing bunch of no-marks.

Silverbullet767

10,680 posts

205 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
fluffnik said:
wavey

When I was wee, we lived in South Wales for 3 years.

In the village, there were two English families, one Irish, my Scottish family, and everyone else was Welsh.

I don't think anyone was British anywhere but in their passport, and I've certainly never felt British.

I've been away from Aberdeen too long to feel properly Aberdonian...

Visiting North America made me feel very European, as does visiting mainland Europe.

In my experience, not that many people identify as British; it's usually town or county first, UK subdivision second.
This, 100%. I know when people ask me how I identify myself, I say I'm Irvine'ish rolleyes

My passport is printed on a slice of square sausage.

Greedydog

888 posts

194 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
fluffnik said:
Greedydog said:
I don't know anyone who have ever said they feel more European than British.
wavey

When I was wee, we lived in South Wales for 3 years.

In the village, there were two English families, one Irish, my Scottish family, and everyone else was Welsh.

I don't think anyone was British anywhere but in their passport, and I've certainly never felt British.

I've been away from Aberdeen too long to feel properly Aberdonian...

Visiting North America made me feel very European, as does visiting mainland Europe.

In my experience, not that many people identify as British; it's usually town or county first, UK subdivision second.
It's funny, when I grew up in central Scotland in the 70's and 80's we were just kids, obviously we identified with being Scottish but British too. We supported Scotland in all things sporting when possible but when there wasn't a Scotland option we supported GB. Never have I heard "Come on Europe!" (except perhaps in the Ryder Cup). As an adult I've worked in many different jobs with all types of people across the social spectrum, during that time I've never heard anyone say they feel more European than Scottish or British. I still don't understand why you feel European (the US thing aside, I'm sure that a lot of British people feel European when compared to Americans) as opposed to Scottish then British?

I've read your previous posts about the wrongs committed by the British Empire etc. but given you appear to give a free pass to the utterly shameful activities of most (all?) European countries at some time or another, I think the whole European vs British thing is just an excuse for anti-English bigotry.


r11co

6,244 posts

229 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
fluffnik said:
Visiting North America made me feel very European, as does visiting mainland Europe.
It was all sounding quite credible until you said that. I've been from America end-to-end and spent a bit of time in Chicago and the west-coast. I felt at various times either Italian or Scottish (depending on the company and their interest in my origins) but never, NEVER was described as or described myself or identified myself as European.

I travel through seven European countries annually, and will be visiting an eighth and ninth this year that I have visited before and it always strikes me that local identity trumps national or supranational identity every time.

The whole 'feeling European' thing is a convenient fiction - just another soundbite. The only people you will find who will answer to 'feeling European' above everything else in surveys tend to be those on the payroll of an EU institution.

Greedydog said:
I think the whole European vs British thing is just an excuse for anti-English bigotry.
yes
Something along the lines of 'Brexit means that England is anti-Europe, so we have to be seen to be the opposite'. It is the politics of division and it becomes all the more ridiculous as time passes and the SNP are forced to backtrack and U-turn on every proclamation as a result of the natural policy shift going on in the UK, and why Sturgeon will be made to look even more stupid as the Brexit negotiation process unfolds - 'so Nicola, last week you were seeking EFTA membership and that now looks likely to be part of the Brexit deal, will you be changing your demands to EEA membership or full EU membership this week?'

This is of course where Sturgeon has gone fatally wrong in her strategy - trying to paint Brexit as a Tory product despite the official Conservative/government policy at the time being to remain. Brexit is a product of the UK populous vote, so Sturgeon has set the populations against each other rather than the Scottish people against the rUK government, and thankfully the majority of Scots respect democracy and don't want civil war.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 09:46

MikeT66

2,680 posts

123 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
A.J.M said:
This.

We didn't want the bloody vote, it was dumped on us by what was and is, a useless ste government determined to write their name in history.

They had years to come up with a proper accounted plan. What did we get?
Bullst and lies. EU membership? Really. Do we need to go back round this after the links on the last thread showing it to be lies.

Currency? First the pound was a millstone round our necks, then it was going to be shared as it was ours too. What is the plan this week? Make up our own? Tie us to the UK pound but have no control over interest rates? Genius.

Costing? What was it? £250 million to fully set up everything and have it all sorted in just over 18 months?
Yet somehow, taking on 15% of benefits can't be done till 2020 because it's complex...

HOW THE fk IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? How can any indy voter sit down, read that, and think " aye, that's fking brilliant and totally fine" 18 months to make a new government, 3 years to take on 15% extra of 1 department...
If you are willing to not only believe that, but vote for it. You're a fking idiot.

We are fed up of having this ste hammered down our throats, Scotland is a bitter divided country because of this ste, all the while, what actually matters is being left to rot and ruin.

Education? Posters are having to pay their own money to cover tutors to make up the shortage because of the failed education efforts. Our schools are 2.5 years behind those in England. 150,000 fewer places for higher education. fk them! Independence matters more than making sure the next generation of Scotland have the best possible start in this world. The wee runt herself said so.

Police? Health, Transport, farming.. All suffering.
Business investment is dropping, employment is lagging behind the UK.
Take a guess why...

We have had enough, we will not standby and let you ruin this country and poison relations with our closest neighbours just so some aholes can put their name in history. We had our once in a generation vote. It's over. fk off and ruin the country or fk off and let someone else do it better.
Brilliant post. clap

Perseverant

439 posts

110 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
I'm Scottish by birth, and I like being Scottish, but I also have a UK passport. My Dad was English and my maternal grandma was from Yorkshire. I don't sound very Scottish, which sadly has attracted some hostile comments in the past. I'm annoyed about Brexit, but I guess we'll have to make the best of it - I think the campaign was a dismal reflection of the competence and integrity of politicians on both sides, ranging as usual from poor to mediocre.
As regards the squeaks for yet another referendum, I am saddened by the nationalist claptrap. Leave the UK on a Monday, fill in the EU application form on Tuesday, keep the pound of course and sail off to the Caledonian ball on a sea of whisky, oil, and farmed salmon. Scotland will win the World Cup of course! There just does not seem to be any sense of reality - the fall in oil prices has cut revenues and thus jobs in the sector. Oil in any case is an international commodity, priced in dollars, and oil companies are international too. The chances to have a Norwegian style fund have long gone, and while there is still some exploration for new fields, the next "boom" is likely to be in decommissioning platforms. I'd like to have a government actually governing rather than embarking on yet another tartan clad emotional trip, which will only prove divisive, and as I've suggested is founded on fantasy economics.
By the by, I can write and speak Scots and have two kilts, lest anyone doubt the Scottish identity. Dad served in the Fleet Air Arm from 1939 to 1958, which underlines my sense of being British too.

Greedydog

888 posts

194 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
MikeT66 said:
A.J.M said:
This.

We didn't want the bloody vote, it was dumped on us by what was and is, a useless ste government determined to write their name in history.

They had years to come up with a proper accounted plan. What did we get?
Bullst and lies. EU membership? Really. Do we need to go back round this after the links on the last thread showing it to be lies.

Currency? First the pound was a millstone round our necks, then it was going to be shared as it was ours too. What is the plan this week? Make up our own? Tie us to the UK pound but have no control over interest rates? Genius.

Costing? What was it? £250 million to fully set up everything and have it all sorted in just over 18 months?
Yet somehow, taking on 15% of benefits can't be done till 2020 because it's complex...

HOW THE fk IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? How can any indy voter sit down, read that, and think " aye, that's fking brilliant and totally fine" 18 months to make a new government, 3 years to take on 15% extra of 1 department...
If you are willing to not only believe that, but vote for it. You're a fking idiot.

We are fed up of having this ste hammered down our throats, Scotland is a bitter divided country because of this ste, all the while, what actually matters is being left to rot and ruin.

Education? Posters are having to pay their own money to cover tutors to make up the shortage because of the failed education efforts. Our schools are 2.5 years behind those in England. 150,000 fewer places for higher education. fk them! Independence matters more than making sure the next generation of Scotland have the best possible start in this world. The wee runt herself said so.

Police? Health, Transport, farming.. All suffering.
Business investment is dropping, employment is lagging behind the UK.
Take a guess why...

We have had enough, we will not standby and let you ruin this country and poison relations with our closest neighbours just so some aholes can put their name in history. We had our once in a generation vote. It's over. fk off and ruin the country or fk off and let someone else do it better.
Brilliant post. clap
Sums up my feelings exactly. Comments like this need to be given more airtime by the media rather than the nonsense spouted by Sturgeon and the constantly revolving SNP no marks that hold positions within the Scottish Government. It's time the media asked hard questions and stop enabling the SNP.

Alpacaman

917 posts

240 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
fluffnik said:
I don't think anyone was British anywhere but in their passport, and I've certainly never felt British.

I've been away from Aberdeen too long to feel properly Aberdonian...

Visiting North America made me feel very European, as does visiting mainland Europe.

In my experience, not that many people identify as British; it's usually town or county first, UK subdivision second.
I don't think I have ever felt that I was anything but British, I was born in England but have Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English ancestors (as do huge numbers of people in the UK), I have chosen to live in Scotland. So how could I consider myself as anything but British?

I certainly have never felt "European" because what the hell does that even mean? Southern Europe? Northern Europe? Eastern Europe? All very different places, with different people and different attitudes. I have been to many different places but never for even a second have I felt even remotely European. If I had to choose between Europe and the UK it would be the UK every time.

technodup

7,576 posts

129 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
Perseverant said:
I'm Scottish by birth, and I like being Scottish, but I also have a UK passport.
We all do. wink

Even fluffnik.

SilverSixer

8,202 posts

150 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
fluffnik said:
Greedydog said:
I don't know anyone who have ever said they feel more European than British.
wavey

When I was wee, we lived in South Wales for 3 years.

In the village, there were two English families, one Irish, my Scottish family, and everyone else was Welsh.

I don't think anyone was British anywhere but in their passport, and I've certainly never felt British.

I've been away from Aberdeen too long to feel properly Aberdonian...

Visiting North America made me feel very European, as does visiting mainland Europe.

In my experience, not that many people identify as British; it's usually town or county first, UK subdivision second.
I identify as British before anything else. Maybe due to my mixed English, Scottish, Welsh and Maltese heritage, but I'll always feel more British than English or Scottish or Berkshireish or Stirlingshireish. My country is the UK. Britain. I'm British.

I don't want to lose that identity, and I will if Scotland leave. I saw the dissolution of the UK as a real risk of Brexit, and this was one of my main reasons for voting Remain. British patriotism. I expect some on here in the PH Echo Chamber of Leave-the-EU-at-all-costs will struggle to grasp this but there it is. I very much doubt I'm in a particularly small minority on this one, nation wide. Perhaps I am on PH. So be it. Secondary to feeling British, I feel European. I have a continental spouse, and therefore my children have more mixed British/European heritage than I do. This is important to us.

Any road up, Scotland should be allowed to decide for itself, again, seeing as things have changed significantly since they were told a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU, and they voted to stay in both but are being removed from one unwillingly. Just my slightly detached feelings on the matter. Although if the Scottish government can't produce a convincing argument and plan then of course I expect that the vote will again be to remain in the UK. Which would be fair enough. And I'd be happy with that, as I would like Britain to remain a unified nation. But I'm not scared of offering people another say, on the basis of a new situation.

There you go. Let the abuse begin, but I'm not going to contribute to the debate any more if the flaming and abuse get too much. Let's be nice to each other, we all see things differently and usually for very good personal reasons.

57 Chevy

5,409 posts

234 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
More than being English, Scottish, British or European, I am a human.

That is why I voted No and Remain. I do not want more divisions in the world of any kind, I want us to work towards world peace and you don't do that by breaking up land masses into smaller pieces. I despise politics of division of any kind. We need to stop focusing on the differences and start focusing on the similarities.

hippy


Northern Munkee

5,354 posts

199 months

Monday 20th March 2017
quotequote all
kowalski655 said:
jsf said:
The reduction in the size of the civil service will save a fair few pennies.
A good chunk of the UK wide civil service is based in Scotland,eg debt collection is done from Stornoway, some big tax offices too i think, so if Scotland did go, there may be more civil servants.

Of course all the civil servants from Scotland can then make up the new government, should be done in 3 days,for 50 groats and a crate of Irn Bru,if you believe the SNP.
Far from wanting to rain on your bonfire of civil servants, I feel obliged to point out your logic is a little flawed here. If there are UK functions administered in Scotland and they go independent those functions will have to be replicated in the U.K., and the Scots will have to set up all the functions administered previously in the U.K. for them in Scotland. It's not unlike the UK's current lack of trade negotiators (as the EU has performed that function increasingly over 40years), and now we have to recruit or train some. Far from reducing the civil service you're probably (between the 2 countries) increasing them.

But you carry on.

Edited by Northern Munkee on Monday 20th March 11:12

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