Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
335d said:
NoNeed said:
Great interview! I hope Scotland wakes up to the absurdity of the SNP position
Should the SNP eventually become successful in obtaining Independance what would they do to fill the void left when UK jobs are returned to rUk. When I was in the Forces the majority of civilian based roles for Forces administration were transferred out of London and moved to Scotland, this alone must be thousands of individuals and I am sure there are many other examples. How will those people and others in Scotland based UK state sector positions be employed or paid for to sit at home?
Genuine question.
Genuine question.
e600 said:
Should the SNP eventually become successful in obtaining Independance what would they do to fill the void left when UK jobs are returned to rUk. When I was in the Forces the majority of civilian based roles for Forces administration were transferred out of London and moved to Scotland, this alone must be thousands of individuals and I am sure there are many other examples. How will those people and others in Scotland based UK state sector positions be employed or paid for to sit at home?
Genuine question.
SNP AnswerGenuine question.
No jobs will go - not a single one.
Any tasks undertaken by RoUK agencies which benefit/support an independent Scotland would continue to be done for no charge (that's what good neighbours do).
The RoUK will continue to subsidise Scotland (that's what good neighbours do).
It's very very simple - the SNP have such a strong position that they can demand to "have cake and eat it"
I think they got hold of the Brexit negotiation strategy and are running with the same play book.
Tryke3 said:
David Davis said
“You don’t need pieces of paper with a number on it to make an economic assessment.”
When asked if british citizens would get free healthcare in the eu, he replied with
“I have not looked at that one.”
When asked if financial services would lose passporting rights to trade in the EU?
“I expect so, that’s an area of uncertainty.”
And the best one
What happens if we get a bad deal
“Haven't looked into it yet.”
You were saying about a plan ?
To be fair, as we know, the UK Govt. were caught on the hop with this one, the result of the referendum was not anticipated nor, let's be honest, really something that had been a major issue much before campaigning.“You don’t need pieces of paper with a number on it to make an economic assessment.”
When asked if british citizens would get free healthcare in the eu, he replied with
“I have not looked at that one.”
When asked if financial services would lose passporting rights to trade in the EU?
“I expect so, that’s an area of uncertainty.”
And the best one
What happens if we get a bad deal
“Haven't looked into it yet.”
You were saying about a plan ?
This isn't something the Conservatives had been planning for 50 years.
The result meant we were suddenly in a position where we had to withdraw, but the conditions weren't something that we would know about until after Article 50 was applied and won't be until negotiations are over.
Nonetheless; we have out own currency, central bank, defence, commonwealth partners, established industries, core financial sector, income and other core autonomy systems which will allow us to function fairly well, I think.
With Scotland all this may be achievable over time, given the right planning, pragmatism and funding - however you would expect that prescience to be laid out at least at a fundamental level well before committing to withdrawing from both trading partners.
The SNP have a goal to get across the finish line, and that's it. They are pushing us over without any idea what happens next rather than leading us over it to a better place.
e600 said:
Should the SNP eventually become successful in obtaining Independance what would they do to fill the void left when UK jobs are returned to rUk. When I was in the Forces the majority of civilian based roles for Forces administration were transferred out of London and moved to Scotland, this alone must be thousands of individuals and I am sure there are many other examples. How will those people and others in Scotland based UK state sector positions be employed or paid for to sit at home?
Genuine question.
Like many who have rightly levelled criticism at the government over a lack of preparedness for Brexit, it may be, that many have not given any thought to, or made any preparations for what happens if Scotland leaves the UK.Genuine question.
For a start they would lose the greater per head taxpayer funding that Scotland currently receives over all the other citizens of the UK. They would then have to join the queue of all the other (Mad?) nations who want to be in the EU... At the back! and when they find that to get in, the EU wants them to pay millions of pounds a day INTO EU coffers, (just for the privilege of allowing Scotland to run a trade deficit with the EU, instead of getting money paid into Scotland coffers) they might well have second thoughts about independence. What has Scotland got to offer the EU? Whiskey, granted, but what about the fish? Oh just remembered, the EU has seized 80% of that already.
I (sadly) came to realise some time ago that there is simply no reasoning with many SNP supporters. The total commitment to the cause of independence blinds them to the lies and fabrications of their leaders. Currency, jobs, trade, EU membership, loss of ship building for the RN, Schengen, cost of setting up of Government...... You name it, none of it is important and the answers will always be that everyone else will always compromise in favour of Scotland.
Press too hard for REAL answers and you will be accused of attacking Scotland, as if somehow holding some policians in a minority Government to account equates to dissing an entire nation.
The languages of the Nats is frequently hateful and deliberately divisive. Apparently being an "equal partner" in the Union does not mean that one Scotsmans vote counts the same as one Englishmans, or one Welshmans, or one Northern Irishmans, no, apparently it means that 8% of the population equals 92% in terms of making decisions, even in areas not devolved to the Scottish Government.
Perhaps the most depressing thing, and in fact one of the reasons why I rarely engage with Nats now, is the widespread belief that rUK only wants Scotland in the Union so that it can exploit Scotland..in Nat minds Scotland subsidises the rUK, no matter what the official figures may say. RUK wanting to maintain the union cannot possibly be anything to do with hundreds of years of shared history, family ties, blood spilt together, a world influenced together, deep seated cultural respect, integration and affection... In Nat minds Scotland is the victim
Press too hard for REAL answers and you will be accused of attacking Scotland, as if somehow holding some policians in a minority Government to account equates to dissing an entire nation.
The languages of the Nats is frequently hateful and deliberately divisive. Apparently being an "equal partner" in the Union does not mean that one Scotsmans vote counts the same as one Englishmans, or one Welshmans, or one Northern Irishmans, no, apparently it means that 8% of the population equals 92% in terms of making decisions, even in areas not devolved to the Scottish Government.
Perhaps the most depressing thing, and in fact one of the reasons why I rarely engage with Nats now, is the widespread belief that rUK only wants Scotland in the Union so that it can exploit Scotland..in Nat minds Scotland subsidises the rUK, no matter what the official figures may say. RUK wanting to maintain the union cannot possibly be anything to do with hundreds of years of shared history, family ties, blood spilt together, a world influenced together, deep seated cultural respect, integration and affection... In Nat minds Scotland is the victim
N
No jobs will go - not a single one.
Any tasks undertaken by RoUK agencies which benefit/support an independent Scotland would continue to be done for no charge (that's what good neighbours do).
The RoUK will continue to subsidise Scotland (that's what good neighbours do).
It's very very simple - the SNP have such a strong position that they can demand to "have cake and eat it"
I think they got hold of the Brexit negotiation strategy and are running with the same play book.
Why on earth would RUK pay a foreign country to administer its armed forces, especially when those jobs could reduce home unemployment.
Considering that SNP have had many years to formulate an exit strategy and plan for an independent future I am staggered at the lack of joined up adult thinking that is being offered as a better way forward. Akin to two stops up from Becontree.
B'stard Child said:
e600 said:
Should the SNP eventually become successful in obtaining Independance what would they do to fill the void left when UK jobs are returned to rUk. When I was in the Forces the majority of civilian based roles for Forces administration were transferred out of London and moved to Scotland, this alone must be thousands of individuals and I am sure there are many other examples. How will those people and others in Scotland based UK state sector positions be employed or paid for to sit at home?
Genuine question.
SNP AnswerGenuine question.
No jobs will go - not a single one.
Any tasks undertaken by RoUK agencies which benefit/support an independent Scotland would continue to be done for no charge (that's what good neighbours do).
The RoUK will continue to subsidise Scotland (that's what good neighbours do).
It's very very simple - the SNP have such a strong position that they can demand to "have cake and eat it"
I think they got hold of the Brexit negotiation strategy and are running with the same play book.
Why on earth would RUK pay a foreign country to administer its armed forces, especially when those jobs could reduce home unemployment.
Considering that SNP have had many years to formulate an exit strategy and plan for an independent future I am staggered at the lack of joined up adult thinking that is being offered as a better way forward. Akin to two stops up from Becontree.
e600 said:
B'stard Child said:
e600 said:
Should the SNP eventually become successful in obtaining Independance what would they do to fill the void left when UK jobs are returned to rUk. When I was in the Forces the majority of civilian based roles for Forces administration were transferred out of London and moved to Scotland, this alone must be thousands of individuals and I am sure there are many other examples. How will those people and others in Scotland based UK state sector positions be employed or paid for to sit at home?
Genuine question.
SNP AnswerGenuine question.
No jobs will go - not a single one.
Any tasks undertaken by RoUK agencies which benefit/support an independent Scotland would continue to be done for no charge (that's what good neighbours do).
The RoUK will continue to subsidise Scotland (that's what good neighbours do).
It's very very simple - the SNP have such a strong position that they can demand to "have cake and eat it"
I think they got hold of the Brexit negotiation strategy and are running with the same play book.
Considering that SNP have had many years to formulate an exit strategy and plan for an independent future I am staggered at the lack of joined up adult thinking that is being offered as a better way forward. Akin to two stops up from Becontree.
andymadmak said:
I (sadly) came to realise some time ago that there is simply no reasoning with many SNP supporters. The total commitment to the cause of independence blinds them to the lies and fabrications of their leaders. Currency, jobs, trade, EU membership, loss of ship building for the RN, Schengen, cost of setting up of Government...... You name it, none of it is important and the answers will always be that everyone else will always compromise in favour of Scotland.
Press too hard for REAL answers and you will be accused of attacking Scotland, as if somehow holding some policians in a minority Government to account equates to dissing an entire nation.
The languages of the Nats is frequently hateful and deliberately divisive. Apparently being an "equal partner" in the Union does not mean that one Scotsmans vote counts the same as one Englishmans, or one Welshmans, or one Northern Irishmans, no, apparently it means that 8% of the population equals 92% in terms of making decisions, even in areas not devolved to the Scottish Government.
Perhaps the most depressing thing, and in fact one of the reasons why I rarely engage with Nats now, is the widespread belief that rUK only wants Scotland in the Union so that it can exploit Scotland..in Nat minds Scotland subsidises the rUK, no matter what the official figures may say. RUK wanting to maintain the union cannot possibly be anything to do with hundreds of years of shared history, family ties, blood spilt together, a world influenced together, deep seated cultural respect, integration and affection... In Nat minds Scotland is the victim
Is the issue that Scottish independence for most is an emotional thing about identity, not economics. Nobody can really argue the case for leaving economically, nobody really knows what will happen especially now the UK is leaving the EU.Press too hard for REAL answers and you will be accused of attacking Scotland, as if somehow holding some policians in a minority Government to account equates to dissing an entire nation.
The languages of the Nats is frequently hateful and deliberately divisive. Apparently being an "equal partner" in the Union does not mean that one Scotsmans vote counts the same as one Englishmans, or one Welshmans, or one Northern Irishmans, no, apparently it means that 8% of the population equals 92% in terms of making decisions, even in areas not devolved to the Scottish Government.
Perhaps the most depressing thing, and in fact one of the reasons why I rarely engage with Nats now, is the widespread belief that rUK only wants Scotland in the Union so that it can exploit Scotland..in Nat minds Scotland subsidises the rUK, no matter what the official figures may say. RUK wanting to maintain the union cannot possibly be anything to do with hundreds of years of shared history, family ties, blood spilt together, a world influenced together, deep seated cultural respect, integration and affection... In Nat minds Scotland is the victim
Some Scottish people feel European, some feel British, some just Scottish. That's really what dictates how people vote. I doubt there are many that want to be independent but voted no due to worry about the Barnet formula.
It's much like Brexit, most experts and most of he government argued against it. There was virtually nodody in positions of financial or political power supporting Brexit yet the public ignored them all.
What's different now is that the UK is leaving the EU and plenty of Scottish people feel very connected to Europe.
El stovey said:
What's different now is that the UK is leaving the EU and plenty of Scottish people feel very connected to Europe.
Ironic seeing as how geographically we're literally the least connected to it.I think this clamour to be 'European' is simply a convenience given the main issue is wanting to be disassociated with England/UK.
technodup said:
El stovey said:
What's different now is that the UK is leaving the EU and plenty of Scottish people feel very connected to Europe.
Ironic seeing as how geographically we're literally the least connected to it.I think this clamour to be 'European' is simply a convenience given the main issue is wanting to be disassociated with England/UK.
It's not surprising to me at all that a small country like scotland would rather be in a larger union with Europe than a smaller union with England and Wales. I expect if all English counties were asked if they wanted to leave the UK and join the EU you might see some surprising results.
It's easy on here with loads of like minded posters shouting, "they (the Scottish) just hate us" "we should vote THEM out" etc to imagine that Scottish independence is an anti English thing but that's a bit simplistic and misses the point. As I said earlier it's more about identity than imagined hatred for a neighbour.
I voted to leave the EU, I've no hatred for the EU or Europeans at all. Quite the opposite.
Raygun said:
If the SNP want to leave the UK because of Brexit what was the reason for the first referendum when we were still firmly in the EU?
When you examine that question it gives the lie to the SNP position.'Business for Scotland' advocacy group recently pointed out all the bad ramifications of us being torn from the EU against our will in support of an independence campaign that would have seen us, er, torn from the EU anyway.
It's basically an excuse for a second referendum, citing it as 'substantial change' since the last one, whereas in fact the actual situation is exactly the same.
Raygun said:
If the SNP want to leave the UK because of Brexit what was the reason for the first referendum when we were still firmly in the EU?
Didn't they vote no then? The SNP didn't really want the first referendum when it happened, polls always indicated a loss was likely. Many Scottish people support the SNP and don't want independence. They simply feel the SNP represents their interests more than labour or the conservatives could.
Cameron called their bluff to shut them up. Much like he did with Brexit and trying to silence his back benchers and UKIP. Same campaign, same project fear, different result.
The difference was also that he campaigned successfully to make Scottish people feel part of the UK emotionally. In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
El stovey said:
Didn't they vote no then?
The SNP didn't really want the first referendum when it happened, polls always indicated a loss was likely. Many Scottish people support the SNP and don't want independence. They simply feel the SNP represents their interests more than labour or the conservatives could.
Cameron called their bluff to shut them up. Much like he did with Brexit and trying to silence his back benchers and UKIP. Same campaign, same project fear, different result.
The difference was also that he campaigned successfully to make Scottish people feel part of the UK emotionally. In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
While I agree with that to a large degree I don't think getting Junckers on QT would have helped matters much The SNP didn't really want the first referendum when it happened, polls always indicated a loss was likely. Many Scottish people support the SNP and don't want independence. They simply feel the SNP represents their interests more than labour or the conservatives could.
Cameron called their bluff to shut them up. Much like he did with Brexit and trying to silence his back benchers and UKIP. Same campaign, same project fear, different result.
The difference was also that he campaigned successfully to make Scottish people feel part of the UK emotionally. In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
El stovey said:
<snip>In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
You may have a point - lets just be thankful that he didn't otherwise if we'd still been in the EU we'd be tied to the disaster that will eventually happen when the cans can no longer be kicked down the road.....If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
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