Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
andy_s said:
While I agree with that to a large degree I don't think getting Junckers on QT would have helped matters much 
Not Junkers no, he's a bit sinister and possibly a drunken groper. There are plenty of other EU representatives though. Cameron decided to keep them all out of the campaign. People couldn't relate to the EU at all. It's not surprising people don't feel emotionally connected to it. Very few have been to Brussels. What do the EU buildings look like? Who's doing what in there? At least the Scottish can see Westminster and the Queen, the prime minister etc. There's loads of icons of GB that Scottish people can identify with. Just having important British people saying they want Scotland to stay is possibly enough to swing the vote.
Like Junckers, the conservatives kept Osborne out of most campaigning, because people don't like him. The media portrays him as having something of the night about him. Next referendum campaign won't involve Osborne going to Glasgow for certain.
The point to all this is that in my view the people wanting to leave are largely motivated emotionally. For them it's about having a Scottish identity. It's not an economic issue, or being anti English. Obviously everyone has their own motivation though.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 19th March 11:16
B'stard Child said:
El stovey said:
<snip>In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
You may have a point - lets just be thankful that he didn't otherwise if we'd still been in the EU we'd be tied to the disaster that will eventually happen when the cans can no longer be kicked down the road.....If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
We saw what happened when Obama said the wrong thing re back of the queue, imagine the mess Junkers could generate. The media would have torn him a new one, even if 90% of what he said was sensible, the 10% he screwed up would be all that Mr average would see.
With regards to another Scottish referendum, if this doesn't die out and we continue to have this distraction during the Brexit process I will become rather pissed off as it will harm the UK. There is a serious job ahead to be done with the Brexit negotiations, we cant afford anything that takes governments eyes off that process.
May should make it crystal clear there will be no referendum for a generation, that is 25 years.
jsf said:
May should make it crystal clear there will be no referendum for a generation, that is 25 years.
She has to tread a careful path though especially if polls are showing a post Brexit increase in support for Scottish independence. Perhaps the SNP are aiming for more devolved powers whilst keeping the same financial support from Westminster,
El stovey said:
andy_s said:
While I agree with that to a large degree I don't think getting Junckers on QT would have helped matters much
Not Junkers no, he's a bit sinister and possibly a drunken groper. There are plenty of other EU representatives though. Cameron decided to keep them all out of the campaign. People couldn't relate to the EU at all. It's not surprising people don't feel emotionally connected to it. Very few have been to Brussels. What do the EU buildings look like? Who's doing what in there? At least the Scottish can see Westminster and the Queen, the prime minister etc. There's loads of icons of GB that Scottish people can identify with. Just having important British people saying they want Scotland to stay is possibly enough to swing the vote.
Like Junckers, the conservatives kept Osborne out of most campaigning, because people don't like him. The media portrays him as having something of the night about him. Next referendum campaign won't involve Osborne going to Glasgow for certain.
The point to all this is that in my view the people wanting to leave are largely motivated emotionally. For them it's about having a Scottish identity. It's not an economic issue, or being anti English. Obviously everyone has their own motivation though.
Edited by El stovey on Sunday 19th March 11:16
Further, and this is the real failing that absolutely boils my piss, is that he actively prevented the civil service from preparing for both results, or even providing information to the Leave campaign. It's almost as if he decided that a scorched earth outcome if we had the audacity to vote Leave was the right thing to do in order to justify his opinion, and give him the opportunity in twenty years time of saying I told you so.
Unfortunately for him, those arguments are being recognised as beint flawed. The PwC paper that only looked at the absolute best case in the event of remain, and the absolute worst case in the event of Leave is a great example...
Scotland has an emotional argument. A flawed one, where there's a perception of underrepresentation in Westminster - when the fact is undeniable, they have the same representation as any other citizen of the UK.
They try to present an economic argument, to persuade those who are either not swayed by emotion or see through the lie. Unfortunately, that's a bunch of obvious bunkem too.
El stovey said:
It's easy on here with loads of like minded posters shouting, "they (the Scottish) just hate us" "we should vote THEM out" etc to imagine that Scottish independence is an anti English thing but that's a bit simplistic and misses the point.
I'll have to disagree there. I think a significant chunk of the SNP masses believe Scotland subsidises England/UK and suffers from a lack of representation. The language used is always careful, e.g. Westminster, Tories, south of the border etc but the implication is quite clear. And that's despite us being the most represented region of the UK. A cursory glance at any comment section will show endless 'facts' about how they stole our oil. No mention of Spain stealing our fish.
Scottish independence is favoured by simpletons.
B'stard Child said:
El stovey said:
<snip>In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
You may have a point - lets just be thankful that he didn't otherwise if we'd still been in the EU we'd be tied to the disaster that will eventually happen when the cans can no longer be kicked down the road.....If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
El stovey said:
jsf said:
May should make it crystal clear there will be no referendum for a generation, that is 25 years.
She has to tread a careful path though especially if polls are showing a post Brexit increase in support for Scottish independence. Perhaps the SNP are aiming for more devolved powers whilst keeping the same financial support from Westminster,
Its not in the gift of the Scottish to call a referendum, only the UK government can grant it.
She should make it crystal clear they aren't getting one for a generation. Let them moan, its just noise.
Meanwhile business will see they can invest in Scotland knowing that for at least the next 25 years they will remain part of the UK.
jsf said:
El stovey said:
jsf said:
May should make it crystal clear there will be no referendum for a generation, that is 25 years.
She has to tread a careful path though especially if polls are showing a post Brexit increase in support for Scottish independence. Perhaps the SNP are aiming for more devolved powers whilst keeping the same financial support from Westminster,
Its not in the gift of the Scottish to call a referendum, only the UK government can grant it.
She should make it crystal clear they aren't getting one for a generation. Let them moan, its just noise.
Meanwhile business will see they can invest in Scotland knowing that for at least the next 25 years they will remain part of the UK.
El stovey said:
jsf said:
El stovey said:
jsf said:
May should make it crystal clear there will be no referendum for a generation, that is 25 years.
She has to tread a careful path though especially if polls are showing a post Brexit increase in support for Scottish independence. Perhaps the SNP are aiming for more devolved powers whilst keeping the same financial support from Westminster,
Its not in the gift of the Scottish to call a referendum, only the UK government can grant it.
She should make it crystal clear they aren't getting one for a generation. Let them moan, its just noise.
Meanwhile business will see they can invest in Scotland knowing that for at least the next 25 years they will remain part of the UK.
We have seen 3 referendums in Scotland, 1979, 1997 and 2014.
Another in 2039 sounds fair enough. Until then they should be told, No.
andy_s said:
'Business for Scotland' advocacy group recently pointed out all the bad ramifications of us being torn from the EU against our will in support of an independence campaign that would have seen us, er, torn from the EU anyway.
This is one thing I really can't understand why the SNP aren't trying to use to their advantage.The independence process would have to involve leaving the EU anyway, regardless of whether they want to rejoin.
Working alongside the rest of the UK government to try and get a good outcome from leaving the EU would mean part of their work is already done and if done in a successful way, could potentially increase their support if the public see this sort of thing as a workable process.
Instead they're trying to paint brexit as the end of days while also claiming independence will be a straightforward 18 month process.
I see Sturgeon has been very carefully using 'will of the Scottish parliament' of late and not the usual 'will of the Scottish people'.
What happened to waiting until there was a clear majority of Scots wanting another referendum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mEOIppGyWg&li...
What happened to waiting until there was a clear majority of Scots wanting another referendum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mEOIppGyWg&li...
jsf said:
What are they going to do? Only UK government can grant a referendum.
I saw one of their popular bloggers suggesting a dissolution of the SP. On the basis that they don't need Westminster approval, and the resultant election can be used as a proxy referendum.Which imo isn't the worst idea. The SNP/Greens wouldn't get a majority. But his preferred option was an advisory referendum, which would (like Brexit) effectively become the basis of future direction. Although I'm not sure if all other parties boycotted it how they could claim legitimacy.
There are options dependent on how extreme they want to go, and how confident they are of success.
Patrick Bateman said:
I see Sturgeon has been very carefully using 'will of the Scottish parliament' of late and not the usual 'will of the Scottish people'.
What happened to waiting until there was a clear majority of Scots wanting another referendum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mEOIppGyWg&li...
And that's a load of utter bWhat happened to waiting until there was a clear majority of Scots wanting another referendum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mEOIppGyWg&li...
ks until she tables a bill and the Scottish Parliament pass it.jsf said:
Who cares.
Its not in the gift of the Scottish to call a referendum, only the UK government can grant it.
She should make it crystal clear they aren't getting one for a generation. Let them moan, its just noise.
Meanwhile business will see they can invest in Scotland knowing that for at least the next 25 years they will remain part of the UK.
This. ^^^^^ Absolutely this...Its not in the gift of the Scottish to call a referendum, only the UK government can grant it.
She should make it crystal clear they aren't getting one for a generation. Let them moan, its just noise.
Meanwhile business will see they can invest in Scotland knowing that for at least the next 25 years they will remain part of the UK.
andy_s said:
El stovey said:
Didn't they vote no then?
The SNP didn't really want the first referendum when it happened, polls always indicated a loss was likely. Many Scottish people support the SNP and don't want independence. They simply feel the SNP represents their interests more than labour or the conservatives could.
Cameron called their bluff to shut them up. Much like he did with Brexit and trying to silence his back benchers and UKIP. Same campaign, same project fear, different result.
The difference was also that he campaigned successfully to make Scottish people feel part of the UK emotionally. In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
While I agree with that to a large degree I don't think getting Junckers on QT would have helped matters much The SNP didn't really want the first referendum when it happened, polls always indicated a loss was likely. Many Scottish people support the SNP and don't want independence. They simply feel the SNP represents their interests more than labour or the conservatives could.
Cameron called their bluff to shut them up. Much like he did with Brexit and trying to silence his back benchers and UKIP. Same campaign, same project fear, different result.
The difference was also that he campaigned successfully to make Scottish people feel part of the UK emotionally. In the Brexit campaign, Cameron's mistake was not allowing the EU to get involved, this made the EU appear some distant organisation that many people couldn't identify with. It was just some foreign people nobody knew, making rules and telling everyone what to do.
If EU leaders and EU technocrats appeared on the tv and told British people who they were, what they did, showed us where they worked etc and said they really wanted the UK to stay, I expect the result would have been different. Cameron didn't let them though as he thought he had it in the bag,
El stovey said:
technodup said:
El stovey said:
What's different now is that the UK is leaving the EU and plenty of Scottish people feel very connected to Europe.
Ironic seeing as how geographically we're literally the least connected to it.I think this clamour to be 'European' is simply a convenience given the main issue is wanting to be disassociated with England/UK.
It's not surprising to me at all that a small country like scotland would rather be in a larger union with Europe than a smaller union with England and Wales. I expect if all English counties were asked if they wanted to leave the UK and join the EU you might see some surprising results.
It's easy on here with loads of like minded posters shouting, "they (the Scottish) just hate us" "we should vote THEM out" etc to imagine that Scottish independence is an anti English thing but that's a bit simplistic and misses the point. As I said earlier it's more about identity than imagined hatred for a neighbour.
I voted to leave the EU, I've no hatred for the EU or Europeans at all. Quite the opposite.
She said it on Sky this morning.
It was painful to watch, when asked about how Scotland would cope with losing its £15 billion hand out, she went on about how Scotland pays the UK then gets it back, when pressed further she said that's all technicalities and moved to the next question.
Utterly pathetic person who doesn't care about the havoc she is going to create if she continues to drive away investment.
It was painful to watch, when asked about how Scotland would cope with losing its £15 billion hand out, she went on about how Scotland pays the UK then gets it back, when pressed further she said that's all technicalities and moved to the next question.
Utterly pathetic person who doesn't care about the havoc she is going to create if she continues to drive away investment.
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