Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[57 Chevy]

Northern Munkee said:

Far from wanting to rain on your bonfire of civil servants, I feel obliged to point out your logic is a little flawed here. If there are UK functions administered in Scotland and they go independent those functions will have to be replicated in the U.K., and the Scots will have to set up all the functions administered previously in the U.K. for them in Scotland. It's not unlike the UK's current lack of trade negotiators, and now we have to recruit or train some. Far from reducing the civil service you're probably (between the 2 countries) increasing them.

But you carry on.

Yes, we benefit from economies of scale. The same economies of scale that the SNP claim work for Police Scotland and various other departments that they have centralised but somehow don't think they apply to the bigger picture

[Murph7355]

57 Chevy said:

Yes, we benefit from economies of scale. The same economies of scale that the SNP claim work for Police Scotland and various other departments that they have centralised but somehow don't think they apply to the bigger picture

Economies of scale can become diseconomies of scale...

[r11co]

SilverSixer said:

Scotland should be allowed to decide for itself, again, seeing as things have changed significantly since they were told a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU, and they voted to stay in both but are being removed from one unwillingly.

That's an SNP narrative - a fiction concocted to underpin their 'cast-iron mandate' for another referendum. The choice was always clear from the start - vote to leave the UK and by extension the EU immediately (despite Salmond's lies to the contrary) or vote to remain in the UK and prolong EU membership until such time as there could be a UK-wide referendum on EU membership.

That was documented and acknowledged by the SNP well in advance of Brexit, and ignorance of that situation or believing Nationalist spin on it doesn't change it.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 11:29

[Big Rod]

57 Chevy said:

More than being English, Scottish, British or European, I am a human.

That is why I voted No and Remain. I do not want more divisions in the world of any kind, I want us to work towards world peace and you don't do that by breaking up land masses into smaller pieces. I despise politics of division of any kind. We need to stop focusing on the differences and start focusing on the similarities.

This is me.

[MrNoisy]

The only person I have ever met that thinks the people of Britain don't think of themselves as British is my SIL who is an ardent supporter of Scottish independence. She got very upset when I explained that despite being a proud Yorkshireman I first and foremost identify as being British. Yes, i'm English, a Yorkshireman etc but primarily I am British. Several years later she is still convinced I am lying? To what end i'm not sure?

Her sister, my good lady wife is also a proud Scot but rather weirdly also considers herself to be British.

One of these ladies has travelled extensively, lived and worked abroad and married other than a local. The other one has lived local to her place of upbringing and is very close to their father in both attitude and locality; a man who is as staunch SNP and anti tory as it would be possible to be without being a criminal.

The point I would like to add to the debate is one I witnessed in the 6 years I lived in Scotland and also see through my extended family. The brainwashing and dehumanising of Scots against the English is rife throughout certain societies in Scotland. The amount of times I have witnessed hatred towards 'The English' is frankly astonishing. When challenged the response is always "Not you, we don't mean you." There is always a little awkward moment when I try to explain that I am English, I am what English people are like.

I hope the good people of Scotland will do what they did last time and stick two fingers up to these divisive, racist scum bags portraying themselves as saviours. It is about time some people north of the border looked a little closer to home for the answer to where their problems are coming from.

I fear this is going to be a much less pleasant campaign this time around and we will probably witness violent protests. Ms May will ensure that (if it is allowed) this will actually put the issue to bed for good. The 'freedom army' will sense this and I fear will try to polarise the argument by whatever means.

[SilverSixer]

r11co said:

SilverSixer said:

Scotland should be allowed to decide for itself, again, seeing as things have changed significantly since they were told a vote to leave the UK was a vote to leave the EU, and they voted to stay in both but are being removed from one unwillingly.

That's an SNP narrative - a fiction concocted to underpin their 'cast-iron mandate' for another referendum. The choice was always clear from the start - vote to leave the UK and by extension the EU immediately (despite Salmond's lies to the contrary) or vote to remain in the UK and prolong EU membership until such time as there could be a UK-wide referendum on EU membership.

That was documented and acknowledged by the SNP well in advance of Brexit, and ignorance of that situation or believing Nationalist spin on it doesn't change it.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 11:29

But there's the problem - in a UK wide vote on the EU a significant difference between what England wants and what Scotland wants was always likely to give the SNP ammo, whether or not you think they're entitled to use that ammo or not is moot. There was always likely to be a significant disagreement on EU membership and holding the EU Referendum just invited this and loaded the gun for the SNP.

Spin, schmin. Show me a political party which does not spin things to their view. Having these blasted referendums in the first place just enables the feckers to do things like this. The horse has bolted, good luck closing the door now. Meanwhile, the UK burns, lit by the spark of anti-EU sentiment, and let's not forget the fate of Northern Ireland in all this too - frankly, it'll be gone to a united Ireland in the next 10 years. These were real risks of the EU Referendum, and they're coming home to roost. It's no use screaming at the SNP now - they were always going to pull this one.

What a shame.

[r11co]

ON the subject of Alex Salmond being a liar, he has since denied that he said on the Andrew Marr show on the BBC that he described the 2014 indyref as 'once in a lifetime', claiming that he said 'the opportunity of a lifetime' instead.

Millions of live viewers and youtube hitters must have misheard him then.

WATCH: Salmond denies saying indyref was ‘once in a lifetime’… but video evidence proves he did.

A lot of SNP narrative spoken today is still based on doctrines that this charlatan came up with.

SilverSixer said:

But there's the problem - in a UK wide vote on the EU a significant difference between what England wants and what Scotland wants was always likely to give the SNP ammo.

Again, you are falling for the narrative. 1/3 of SNP supporters backed Brexit. More people voted for Brexit in Scotland than voted for the SNP in the Holyrood election in 2016. The fact that the number of votes for remain were greater than the number of votes for leave in Scotland is meaningless as it wasn't a constituency or regional vote - the turnout in Scotland was low meaning that the abstainers were gifting their vote to the winning side as they didn't care about the outcome. It is incorrect to say that it is the will of Scotland to stay in the EU as that has never been tested.

You are correct though that the SNP will seize on any excuse, but this is where Nicola Sturgeon's strategy has come apart - she believes she can aggregate support for her cause by linking disparate issues. The opinion polls, reaction from the public and media alike and even the noises being made by her own party officials suggest otherwise.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 12:04

[Borghetto]

[quote=SilverSixer]

Meanwhile, the UK burns, lit by the spark of anti-EU sentiment, and let's not forget the fate of Northern Ireland in all this too - frankly, it'll be gone to a united Ireland in the next 10 years. quote]

Have you ever met an Ulster Unionist? Ireland needs a disunited Ulster like a hole in the head.

[SilverSixer]

r11co said:

Again, you are falling for the narrative. 1/3 of SNP supporters backed Brexit. More people voted for Brexit in Scotland than voted for the SNP in the Holyrood election in 2016. The fact that the number of votes for remain were greater than the number of votes for leave in Scotland is meaningless as it wasn't a constituency or regional vote - the turnout in Scotland was low meaning that the abstainers were gifting their vote to the winning side as they didn't care about the outcome. It is incorrect to say that it is the will of Scotland to stay in the EU as that has never been tested.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 11:48

But it is the valid, settled will of the British people to leave the EU I suppose, and the abstainers who weren't in Scotland can be ignored in that ballot. This kind of doublethink doesn't get us anywhere.

I'm not falling for any "narrative". I'm calling things how I see them on the balance of the facts of the matter. I'm no SNP fan and as I pointed out I see myself as British above all else and wish the Union to continue. The SNP have some valid points in my book but equally a very, very shaky case for independence. They are being handed a loaded gun by the UK Government, whether or not they use it to their ends remains to be seen but I find it hard to argue against their case for second referendum. I wish it were otherwise.

[SilverSixer]

Borghetto said:

SilverSixer said:

Meanwhile, the UK burns, lit by the spark of anti-EU sentiment, and let's not forget the fate of Northern Ireland in all this too - frankly, it'll be gone to a united Ireland in the next 10 years. [quote]

Have you ever met an Ulster Unionist? Ireland needs a disunited Ulster like a hole in the head.

Yeah, plenty, spent some time in NI (Belfast) in the early 90s and still have contacts. Reading the result of the election there a couple of weeks ago and it looks like a trend is emerging, and demographics are on the side of Republicanism also. Won't take much now to tip the Stormont Assembly over to the other side. As with mooted Scottish independence, I wish it weren't so but it seems hard to deny at the moment.

Edited by SilverSixer on Monday 20th March 12:13

[r11co]

SilverSixer said:

But it is the valid, settled will of the British people to leave the EU I suppose, and the abstainers who weren't in Scotland can be ignored in that ballot. This kind of doublethink doesn't get us anywhere.

It isn't doublethink.

It is not as if the abstainers were denied a vote. Their choice is equally as influential as anyone else's. If they were minded not to vote because they thought the outcome was inevitable and would go the way they favoured but it then didn't they have to accept the responsibility for the outcome regardless.

The 'loaded gun' analogy only works if the actual will of the people matches Sturgeon's narrative. Opinion polls and her own party's noises suggest it doesn't.

Ruth Davidson has made the accurate point many times that a vote to remain cannot be treated as a proxy vote for independence and vice versa, and a third of SNP Brexit-supporting voters agree - the third that feel Nicola is now ignoring their will, and every time an SNP talking head repeats the mantra 'Scotland being dragged out against its will' they feel further disenfranchised.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 12:18

[SilverSixer]

r11co said:

SilverSixer said:

But it is the valid, settled will of the British people to leave the EU I suppose, and the abstainers who weren't in Scotland can be ignored in that ballot. This kind of doublethink doesn't get us anywhere.

It isn't doublethink.

It is not as if the abstainers were denied a vote. Their choice is equally as influential as anyone else's. If they were minded not to vote because they thought the outcome was inevitable and would go the way they favoured but it then didn't they have to accept the responsibility for the outcome regardless.

I'd say that the will of the people of Scotland to remain in the EU is quite clear, and that if a separate vote for Scotland only were held today on Leave/Remain (EU) the result would be pretty much the same as the UK referendum was in Scotland. The fact the Scotland was 62% in favour of EU membership is a perfectly valid thing to take notice of and act upon. And even if it wasn't, then you'd have to be extremely politically naïve to expect the SNP not to attempt to take advantage of it. Politics 101, innit.

Edited by SilverSixer on Monday 20th March 12:29

[Anglade]

Do the greens even have a mandate to support another referendum?
Would be rather telling if only one party supported it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gXQNA1lO4

[andymadmak]

SilverSixer said:

I'd say that the will of the people of Scotland to remain in the EU is quite clear, and that if a spate vote for Scotland only were held today on Leave/Remain (EU) the result would be pretty much the same as the UK referendum was in Scotland. The fact the Scotland was 62% in favour of EU membership is a perfectly valid thing to take notice of and act upon. And even if it wasn't, then you'd have to be extremely politically naïve to expect the SNP not to attempt to take advantage of it. Politics 101, innit.

Leave the % aside, its a fact that fewer Scottish people voted for Scotland to Remain in the EU than voted for Scotland to Remain in the UK
The mandate to Remain in the UK is clearer

[r11co]

SilverSixer said:

I'd say that the will of the people of Scotland to remain in the EU is quite clear, and that if a spate vote for Scotland only were held today on Leave/Remain (EU) the result would be pretty much the same as the UK referendum was in Scotland. The fact the Scotland was 62% in favour of EU membership is a perfectly valid thing to take notice of and act upon. And even if it wasn't, then you'd have to be extremely politically naïve to expect the SNP not to attempt to take advantage of it. Politics 101, innit.

You are missing the point though that 62% of those who voted selecting to remain in the UK does not equate to a majority wanting to become independent. The SNP was a staunchly anti-EU party and as much as a third of its core support and many of its executive members remain euro-sceptic.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 12:32

[Pan Pan Pan]

It seems the position the Scots feel they are in now, is not dissimilar to the position the UK found itself in, after voting to join the EEC.
I wonder if a referendum vote had been given to the UK, when the EEC changed itself into the EU, how many would have voted to be members of the EU?
It seems not a single person in the UK voted to become members of the EU in 1975, they only voted on whether or not, to become members of a trading bloc known as the EEC.
As to how many were aware that the EEC would change itself into the EU is a difficult one to call. In 1975 the majority voted to be a member of the EEC, but if anything, the amount of information available to the UK public then was even more pitiful than the information put out by both sides of the leave /remain campaigns in the run up to the 2016 referendum. If it had been explained to them the implications of being a member of the EEC in 1975, it is quite likely the UK would have voted not to be a member of the EEC/EU.

[Patrick Bateman]

Agreed. Where is this majority wanting another referendum if the EU is more important than the UK?

[SilverSixer]

r11co said:

SilverSixer said:

But it is the valid, settled will of the British people to leave the EU I suppose, and the abstainers who weren't in Scotland can be ignored in that ballot. This kind of doublethink doesn't get us anywhere.

It isn't doublethink.

It is not as if the abstainers were denied a vote. Their choice is equally as influential as anyone else's. If they were minded not to vote because they thought the outcome was inevitable and would go the way they favoured but it then didn't they have to accept the responsibility for the outcome regardless.

The 'loaded gun' analogy only works if the actual will of the people matches Sturgeon's narrative. Opinion polls and her own party's noises suggest it doesn't.

Ruth Davidson has made the accurate point many times that a vote to remain cannot be treated as a proxy vote for independence and vice versa, and a third of SNP Brexit-supporting voters agree - the third that feel Nicola is now ignoring their will, and every time an SNP talking head repeats the mantra 'Scotland being dragged out against its will' they feel further disenfranchised.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 12:18

Well here's the problem with government by referendum - "the will of the people". We live in representative parliamentary democracy and that's where these decisions should be taken. As I said, the EU referendum opened the stable door on all this, unnecessarily, and now here we are. It's rubbish. And there is now no easy solution, because that's politics. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of us don't want all this cobblers now, but we've got it and can't put the eggs back in the box now we've made our omelette.

[SilverSixer]

r11co said:

SilverSixer said:

I'd say that the will of the people of Scotland to remain in the EU is quite clear, and that if a spate vote for Scotland only were held today on Leave/Remain (EU) the result would be pretty much the same as the UK referendum was in Scotland. The fact the Scotland was 62% in favour of EU membership is a perfectly valid thing to take notice of and act upon. And even if it wasn't, then you'd have to be extremely politically naïve to expect the SNP not to attempt to take advantage of it. Politics 101, innit.

You are missing the point though that 62% of those who voted selecting to remain in the UK does not equate to a majority wanting to become independent. The SNP was a staunchly anti-EU party and as much as a third of its core support and many of its executive members remain euro-sceptic.

Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 12:32

I'm not saying there's a majority in favour of independence. I'm saying it's not unreasonable to be asking the question again now, given the circumstances. However much I don't want it to be so. But, OK, let them (the SNP) have the referendum. If I were Theresa May I'd want them to have it tomorrow - they'd lose it. Then they'd have to shut up. Unless Theresa May's endgame is a new, Tory dominated Kingdom of England at the end of all this of course.

We're on the same side here - I don't want Scottish independence, I think it's a unhelpful idea, but the way the dice have fallen since David Cameron decided to save the Tory party, it's a game which is going to get played again.

[Ridgemont]

SilverSixer said:

Well here's the problem with government by referendum - "the will of the people". We live in representative parliamentary democracy and that's where these decisions should be taken. As I said, the EU referendum opened the stable door on all this, unnecessarily, and now here we are. It's rubbish. And there is now no easy solution, because that's politics. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of us don't want all this cobblers now, but we've got it and can't put the eggs back in the box now we've made our omelette.

Generally I agree with you (despite being a Brexiteer) apart from observing that I suspect the last 20 years will be seen in retrospect as constitutional vandalism by a New Labour movement overly impressed by its own narrative and an egg faced pigfker who frankly had no business calling himself a Conservative.

I'm also very impressed by the stable door/Cobbler/Omelette/Egg box metaphor mashup