Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Perhaps the UK should have been given another vote, when the EEC decided to change itself into the EU. I seriously doubt that many then, could predict or realize what the implications of that single act would be.
As it stands, not a single person in the UK had been given the opportunity to vote on whether or not they wanted to be members of the EU. Fortunately now they have been given that chance, and they voted in 2016 for OUT. it just took 40 odd years of being in something no one in the UK had been allowed to vote for (or against) to get there. Thank heaven it now has.
As it stands, not a single person in the UK had been given the opportunity to vote on whether or not they wanted to be members of the EU. Fortunately now they have been given that chance, and they voted in 2016 for OUT. it just took 40 odd years of being in something no one in the UK had been allowed to vote for (or against) to get there. Thank heaven it now has.
SilverSixer said:
I'm saying it's not unreasonable to be asking the question again now, given the circumstance.
I'd say it is unreasonable because we don't know the impact of BREXIT yet so can't see what we would be voting for on the side of remaining in the UK and the SNP haven't put forward their vision on what leaving the UK would look like. The timing couldn't be worse for Scotland, we need stability right now. 57 Chevy said:
SilverSixer said:
I'm saying it's not unreasonable to be asking the question again now, given the circumstance.
I'd say it is unreasonable because we don't know the impact of BREXIT yet so can't see what we would be voting for on the side of remaining in the UK and the SNP haven't put forward their vision on what leaving the UK would look like. The timing couldn't be worse for Scotland, we need stability right now. Anglade said:
Do the greens even have a mandate to support another referendum?
Would be rather telling if only one party supported it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gXQNA1lO4
Why do you think Nicola hasn't tabled a bill in Holyrood? Would be rather telling if only one party supported it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gXQNA1lO4
She's spouting that May is ignoring the Scottish Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament hasn't stated it's view.
She has no mandate to speak about this as First Minister. None at all.
She can speak as Leader of the SNP, but as much as she'd like the two to be synonymous, they aren't until a vote has occurred...
Ridgemont said:
SilverSixer said:
Well here's the problem with government by referendum - "the will of the people". We live in representative parliamentary democracy and that's where these decisions should be taken. As I said, the EU referendum opened the stable door on all this, unnecessarily, and now here we are. It's rubbish. And there is now no easy solution, because that's politics. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of us don't want all this cobblers now, but we've got it and can't put the eggs back in the box now we've made our omelette.
Generally I agree with you (despite being a Brexiteer) apart from observing that I suspect the last 20 years will be seen in retrospect as constitutional vandalism by a New Labour movement overly impressed by its own narrative and an egg faced pigf
ker who frankly had no business calling himself a Conservative. I'm also very impressed by the stable door/Cobbler/Omelette/Egg box metaphor mashup
Bkark.
SilverSixer said:
... If I were Theresa May I'd want them to have it tomorrow - they'd lose it. Then they'd have to shut up. ...
Only for another two years if voting patterns remained static. There'd be more caterwauling once the deal on exiting the EU was concluded - Sturgeon or some other Salmond clone would find some reason why the deal was a deliberate affront to the Scots by the English.After the next elections IF they still hold a majority/can form one with parties who have a referendum as no1 on their manifesto. Telegraph that out to the electorate now and give everyone plenty of chance to start setting stalls out. Also gives the SNP chance to actually govern Scotland properly for the next couple of years. Let's see what they can do for the next two that they haven't for the last 7.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Perhaps the UK should have been given another vote, when the EEC decided to change itself into the EU. I seriously doubt that many then, could predict or realize what the implications of that single act would be.
As it stands, not a single person in the UK had been given the opportunity to vote on whether or not they wanted to be members of the EU. Fortunately now they have been given that chance, and they voted in 2016 for OUT. it just took 40 odd years of being in something no one in the UK had been allowed to vote for (or against) to get there. Thank heaven it now has.
They should have been given one for each treaty. Maybe it would have been easier to solidify the benefits and convince people has it been done in smaller chunks.As it stands, not a single person in the UK had been given the opportunity to vote on whether or not they wanted to be members of the EU. Fortunately now they have been given that chance, and they voted in 2016 for OUT. it just took 40 odd years of being in something no one in the UK had been allowed to vote for (or against) to get there. Thank heaven it now has.
Then again...
Ridgemont said:
SilverSixer said:
Well here's the problem with government by referendum - "the will of the people". We live in representative parliamentary democracy and that's where these decisions should be taken. As I said, the EU referendum opened the stable door on all this, unnecessarily, and now here we are. It's rubbish. And there is now no easy solution, because that's politics. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of us don't want all this cobblers now, but we've got it and can't put the eggs back in the box now we've made our omelette.
Generally I agree with you (despite being a Brexiteer) apart from observing that I suspect the last 20 years will be seen in retrospect as constitutional vandalism by a New Labour movement overly impressed by its own narrative and an egg faced pigfker who frankly had no business calling himself a Conservative. I'm also very impressed by the stable door/Cobbler/Omelette/Egg box metaphor mashup
It's all a bit late complaining about referendums and whether such a form was the best in these circumstances.
Although it's a fairly safe bet that if the referendum had gone the other way, I'd imagine SilverSixer would use another metaphor to describe referendums as being the best thing since sliced bread.
I'd also bet that the majority who voted to leave do want the cobblers and rubbish ( as described by SS) that is now being played out,the eggs for the omelette will be replaced on the 29th March.
I doubt Scotland will ever get a referendum,it seems most don't want one and Sturgeon will be forgotten long before the deadline she has given and since prevaricated over.
don'tbesilly said:
Ridgemont said:
SilverSixer said:
Well here's the problem with government by referendum - "the will of the people". We live in representative parliamentary democracy and that's where these decisions should be taken. As I said, the EU referendum opened the stable door on all this, unnecessarily, and now here we are. It's rubbish. And there is now no easy solution, because that's politics. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of us don't want all this cobblers now, but we've got it and can't put the eggs back in the box now we've made our omelette.
Generally I agree with you (despite being a Brexiteer) apart from observing that I suspect the last 20 years will be seen in retrospect as constitutional vandalism by a New Labour movement overly impressed by its own narrative and an egg faced pigfker who frankly had no business calling himself a Conservative. I'm also very impressed by the stable door/Cobbler/Omelette/Egg box metaphor mashup
It's all a bit late complaining about referendums and whether such a form was the best in these circumstances.
Although it's a fairly safe bet that if the referendum had gone the other way, I'd imagine SilverSixer would use another metaphor to describe referendums as being the best thing since sliced bread.
I'd also bet that the majority who voted to leave do want the cobblers and rubbish ( as described by SS) that is now being played out,the eggs for the omelette will be replaced on the 29th March.
I doubt Scotland will ever get a referendum,it seems most don't want one and Sturgeon will be forgotten long before the deadline she has given and since prevaricated over.
Sway said:
Why do you think Nicola hasn't tabled a bill in Holyrood?
She's spouting that May is ignoring the Scottish Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament hasn't stated it's view.
She has no mandate to speak about this as First Minister. None at all.
She can speak as Leader of the SNP, but as much as she'd like the two to be synonymous, they aren't until a vote has occurred...
I was chatting with a Scotsman in the pub on Saturday night (not that common in Somerset) and I simply stated that i wish Nicola would wind her neck in as she had no mandate. His reply was that the SNP's majority gave her a mandate so I pointed out this majority didnt exist.She's spouting that May is ignoring the Scottish Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament hasn't stated it's view.
She has no mandate to speak about this as First Minister. None at all.
She can speak as Leader of the SNP, but as much as she'd like the two to be synonymous, they aren't until a vote has occurred...
Apparently an Englishman cant tell a Scotsman about Scottish politics; I told him to Google and left for the bar
SilverSixer said:
don'tbesilly said:
Ridgemont said:
SilverSixer said:
Well here's the problem with government by referendum - "the will of the people". We live in representative parliamentary democracy and that's where these decisions should be taken. As I said, the EU referendum opened the stable door on all this, unnecessarily, and now here we are. It's rubbish. And there is now no easy solution, because that's politics. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of us don't want all this cobblers now, but we've got it and can't put the eggs back in the box now we've made our omelette.
Generally I agree with you (despite being a Brexiteer) apart from observing that I suspect the last 20 years will be seen in retrospect as constitutional vandalism by a New Labour movement overly impressed by its own narrative and an egg faced pigfker who frankly had no business calling himself a Conservative. I'm also very impressed by the stable door/Cobbler/Omelette/Egg box metaphor mashup
It's all a bit late complaining about referendums and whether such a form was the best in these circumstances.
Although it's a fairly safe bet that if the referendum had gone the other way, I'd imagine SilverSixer would use another metaphor to describe referendums as being the best thing since sliced bread.
I'd also bet that the majority who voted to leave do want the cobblers and rubbish ( as described by SS) that is now being played out,the eggs for the omelette will be replaced on the 29th March.
I doubt Scotland will ever get a referendum,it seems most don't want one and Sturgeon will be forgotten long before the deadline she has given and since prevaricated over.
Is disagreeing with you so hard for you to comprehend?
Tell me, if the referendum had gone in your favour would you argue that referendums were such a bad idea?
I'd wager you wouldn't even bother arguing the toss, you'd have got what you wanted, why even bother debating from a position of strength having been on the winning side.
I wouldn't bother answering, as you say I know all about you and what you stand for, so of course know your answer.
don'tbesilly said:
Tell me, if the referendum had gone in your favour would you argue that referendums were such a bad idea?
I've always argued that referendums are a bad idea in a representative parliamentary democracy, and if last year's had gone "my" way I expect we'd still be discussing it because the chances of the anti-EU bots shutting up and folding were precisely zero - Nigel said 52-48 wouldn't be finished business, remember.Now, I've stopped trying to debate in the brexit thread because frankly I was sick of being hounded for holding a reasonable, rational opinion. This thread is about Scottish Independence so if you'd like to discuss that be my guest, but please try to accept that other views than yours will exist. Also, if you're going to try to debate my points please actually read them rather than looking for what you want to find and talking about that, even if it isn't there.
Cheers.
Big Rod said:
57 Chevy said:
More than being English, Scottish, British or European, I am a human.
That is why I voted No and Remain. I do not want more divisions in the world of any kind, I want us to work towards world peace and you don't do that by breaking up land masses into smaller pieces. I despise politics of division of any kind. We need to stop focusing on the differences and start focusing on the similarities.
This is me.That is why I voted No and Remain. I do not want more divisions in the world of any kind, I want us to work towards world peace and you don't do that by breaking up land masses into smaller pieces. I despise politics of division of any kind. We need to stop focusing on the differences and start focusing on the similarities.
But if you say so I'm in no position to argue sir.
SilverSixer said:
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean now, as in now. I meant it as in end 2018/early 2019 as has been proposed by the Scottish Government..
..and since prevaricated over, as someone else has pointed out.I don't think there should be another referendum for the many reasons already pointed out, but also for two overriding ones. Firstly a line had to be drawn, the tail had to stop wagging the dog and a party in a minority government in a devolved parliament had to be told to stop abusing its weak position and making assumptions that strident demands would be met with capitulation.
Secondly, like it or not, Brexit has to be negotiated, and the SNP's attempts to undermine that process are more dangerous to the future of the UK than any threats of breakaway by Scotland.
This seems to be the thinking of a responsible and pragmatic prime-minister, and like her or not her approach throws into stark contrast the dangerous opportunism of Nicola Sturgeon and Salmond before her.
r11co said:
Secondly, like it or not, Brexit has to be negotiated, and the SNP's attempts to undermine that process are more dangerous to the future of the UK than any threats of breakaway by Scotland.
Indeed, May has worked hard to get herself into a position where she can turn up to the negotiating table having already got a worse case (hard BREXIT) scenario agreed in parliament. This is a very strong position as she has nothing to loose. I think it will allow her to get the best deal from a bad situation. Any noise that undermines that is not welcome. r11co said:
SilverSixer said:
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean now, as in now. I meant it as in end 2018/early 2019 as has been proposed by the Scottish Government..
..and since prevaricated over, as someone else has pointed out.I don't think there should be another referendum for the many reasons already pointed out, but also for two overriding ones. Firstly a line had to be drawn, the tail had to stop wagging the dog and a party in a minority government in a devolved parliament had to be told to stop abusing its weak position and making assumptions that strident demands would be met with capitulation.
Secondly, like it or not, Brexit has to be negotiated, and the SNP's attempts to undermine that process are more dangerous to the future of the UK than any threats of breakaway by Scotland.
This seems to be the thinking of a responsible and pragmatic prime-minister, and like her or not her approach throws into stark contrast the dangerous opportunism of Nicola Sturgeon and Salmond before her.
SilverSixer said:
You may be right, but there's bugger all that can be done to stop them now.
On the contrary. Anyone saying that doesn't understand the s.30 process and the Scottish Parliament. Sturgeon went off half-cocked last Monday because she needed a present for her party faithful at the SNP conference on Friday.Sturgeon has no mandate for a second referendum until she wins a vote in the Scottish Parliament. That is not a foregone conclusion as the SNP are a minority. It seems the Scottish Greens will back the vote despite it requiring them to break a clear manifesto pledge, so there is still time and opportunity for them to be mindful of their political future and what they owe to their voters.
Even if the vote passes it will be subject to a debate where all the issues and questions surrounding the proposals will be aired under the full media spotlight. This will be against a background of a failing record in government that the SNP seem to have no answer to or inclination to solve, and blaming Westminster will sound hollow when the UK parliament is tied up with other issues and Holyrood has the powers in the meantime to take action.
There are also many people who voted for SNP in the Holyrood elections who remember this and probably feel more than a little betrayed at the moment.
Too many people are forgetting that this time it is very different from last time around when the SNP stood on a manifesto pledge to have a referendum on independence with no caveats, and won a majority at Holyrood on the back of it.
Edited by r11co on Monday 20th March 15:05
SilverSixer said:
You may be right, but there's bugger all that can be done to stop them now. May could have worked with them after the Scottish Government proposals which they presented in, what, December? Ignored. More ammo. .
They were designed to be ignored. They were always going to be ignored because they were pretty much impossible to implement in practice and the whole idea was to deliberately present something unworkable so Sturgeon could moan about it.The SNP do not really give a toss about the EU or even the Single Market, it is all a means to an end with Independence.
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