Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[simoid]

Misled? Oil revenues are about £10bn short of Alex Salmond's £9.8bn estimates

[r11co]

Strocky said:

At least you've the good grace to recognise the governing party's commitment to sticking to their own manifesto policy re Brexit

When one party supporting a motion is unequivocally breaking a manifesto pledge it kind of trumps the relevance of the other supporting party creatively interpreting their manifesto pledge WRT the facts. Not seeing the point in discussing it as it is waste of time (except insofar that the SNP creating a false pretence of integrity casts into sharp contrast that the Scottish Greens haven't even bothered) is not the same thing as acknowledging it.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 23 March 00:35

[Sway]

As per the blog posted yesterday, it's shameful that the politics of identity are starting to form.

Last time there were elements of it, now it's front and centre of the SNP - and of course their supporters will take it even further, as last time.

"Unionists" (last time I heard that in common usage, I couldn't find a public bin in London. Refers to currently over 50% of the population of Scotland).

"Tories" (30% odd percent of the Scottish vote, yet no used as an insult meaning "anyone that disagrees with the SNP").

Further, we have Sturgeon demanding the best and brightest from the EU (as if they were really going to be attracted), whereas a while ago it was "send us your poor". Originally virtue signalling, starting to turn into something much more 'selective'.

There are strong parallels with some dark times in global history.

[amusingduck]

Rick_1138 said:

Also financially I know a lot of folk who were swing vote s to YES Last time are now NO due to the economic climate that an independent Scotland would develop into as we would be out of UK AND EU if we go independent and would have horrifying interest and taxation levels with massive public sector job losses and many losing their homes due to increased inflation.

But nothing has changed in that regard. If Scotland had voted for independence in the 2014 referendum, they would have been out of the UK AND EU then, too.

[finnie]

On bbc Scotland news this morning they are announcing that the Audit Scotland office are launching an investigation in to the potential costs of the new devolved tax powers that Scotland is about to get. They will soon be dealing with the same numbers of applications in a week that they previously had to deal with in a year!!! The investigation will also look into how they are going to recruit for this.

SO..... what did the SNP say before..... Lets go independent and we will do it in 18 months and it will cost..... Aye right! If we need an investigation into a few devolved tax powers what are we going to need if we go independent and have the whole lot!!!

Independence is going to cost billions and we simply don't have the people available to do it. How long will it take, decades for attempt one with another decade to refine it? Just how do you yessers think this is going to be done? Chaos for years but that will be fine because it will be Westmonsters fault anyway

If my kids were heading toward uni age I'd be sending them on accountancy apprenticeships/degrees because there could be a mighty good future for them

Edited by finnie on Thursday 23 March 07:18

Edited by finnie on Thursday 23 March 08:10

[r11co]

finnie said:

On bbc Scotland news this morning they are announcing that the Audit Scotland office are launching an investigation in to the potential costs of the new devolved tax powers that Scotland is about to get. They will soon be dealing with the same numbers of applications in a day that they previously had to deal with in a year!!! The investigation will also look into how they are going to recruit for this

If the figure comes in at £250million or more then that is the entire White Paper budget blown. Even if it comes in at half that it is still a joke.

I had a conversation yesterday with my colleagues about the independence thing. Most of them are a bit behind the curve compared to the folks on here and tend to still stick to the soundbite arguments for and against, but when I stated my position I said that I wouldn't vote for independence for the single reason that I don't trust any of the proponents of it, and this statement was met with unanimity (although one or two of the die-hards did follow up with a half-hearted 'you can't trust any of them').

[Rick_1138]

amusingduck said:

Rick_1138 said:

Also financially I know a lot of folk who were swing vote s to YES Last time are now NO due to the economic climate that an independent Scotland would develop into as we would be out of UK AND EU if we go independent and would have horrifying interest and taxation levels with massive public sector job losses and many losing their homes due to increased inflation.

But nothing has changed in that regard. If Scotland had voted for independence in the 2014 referendum, they would have been out of the UK AND EU then, too.

Oh I know that. I just meant that Sir to the oil slump answer especially all the job losses here many have had the magic blinders removed. Where most of us knew it was nonsense the first time

[benjijames28]

The Scottish national party are just irritants. It baffles me why they would want independence from the UK only to hand over control to the EU.

It's just a strange situation and a strange bunch of people.

[jk_88]

"The Darien scheme was an unsuccessful attempt by the Kingdom of Scotland to become a world trading nation by establishing a colony called "Caledonia".... From the beginning the undertaking was beset by poor planning and provisioning, divided leadership, a lack of demand for trade goods particularly caused by an English trade blockade."


Is this history repeating? Replace Darien with iScotland and colony to country and it seems so. The final act that lead to the act of the union in the first place.

[Smollet]

benjijames28 said:

The Scottish national party are just irritants. It baffles me why they would want independence from the UK only to hand over control to the EU.

It's just a strange situation and a strange bunch of people.

I suspect it's because they the SNP hate Westminster more than anyone else. All the Scots I have met seem to be perfectly ok with the English though

[SilverSixer]

benjijames28 said:

The Scottish national party are just irritants. It baffles me why they would want independence from the UK only to hand over control to the EU.

It's just a strange situation and a strange bunch of people.

That would indeed baffle anyone who thinks hat the EU "controls" its member states. If that were the case, the UK wouldn't be notifying them that we're leaving.

[hyphen]

Daily Mail are claiming that SNP MP'S refused to end their Independence debate early when news of the London incident broke, instead independence talks continued for another hour or so.

When it was eventually stopped (by a Sturgeon intervention) some kicked up a fuss.

Being the Daily mail, could be a wee bit exaggerated, anyone know more? As would be shocking if true.

[r11co]

Smollet said:

I suspect it's because they the SNP hate Westminster more than anyone else.

They hate it so much that 54 of them are happy and content to suckle at its teat.

Smollet said:

All the Scots I have met seem to be perfectly ok with the English though.

You have been fortunate because of the circles you turn in. My own experience differs, probably because attitudes change when 'the English' are out of earshot.

[r11co]

hyphen said:

anyone know more? As would be shocking if true.

It is true. Deputy presiding officer Linda Fabiani refused to suspend proceedings, stating "business as usual", although she was all contrite about it later when interviewed by the BBC when she realised what an arse she had been.

The MSP who vocally expressed her annoyance at the eventual suspension was Rosanna Cunningham.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 23 March 10:03

[SilverSixer]

r11co said:

They hate it so much that 54 of them are happy and content to suckle at its teat.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Fair enough if you say the same about UKIP in the European Parliament. And if you admire Sinn Fein for not taking seats in Westminster despite being elected.

Personally speaking, I'm perfectly happy for representatives from any legitimate party to be elected to any Parliament, and accept that the public purse has to bear the cost. Democracy, I think it's called.

I'm opposed to the SNP's agenda and politics, but I accept they have a legitimate right to sit in the UK Parliament when duly elected.

[Silverbullet767]

SilverSixer said:

I'm opposed to the SNP's agenda and politics, but I accept they have a legitimate right to sit in the UK Parliament when duly elected.

I wouldn't deny that either, but they are elected to represent the population of their constituency, not to ignore them. All they are is tools for the parties agenda which is independence at any cost.

[anonymous-user]

SilverSixer said:

That would indeed baffle anyone who thinks hat the EU "controls" its member states. If that were the case, the UK wouldn't be notifying them that we're leaving.

The EU does currently control UK trade agreements.
The EU does currently control migration policy from the other 27 member states.

To suggest the EU doesn't control anything, because it doesn't control everything, is pretty dumb.

[Ridgemont]

SilverSixer said:

r11co said:

They hate it so much that 54 of them are happy and content to suckle at its teat.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Fair enough if you say the same about UKIP in the European Parliament. And if you admire Sinn Fein for not taking seats in Westminster despite being elected.

Personally speaking, I'm perfectly happy for representatives from any legitimate party to be elected to any Parliament, and accept that the public purse has to bear the cost. Democracy, I think it's called.

I'm opposed to the SNP's agenda and politics, but I accept they have a legitimate right to sit in the UK Parliament when duly elected.

Indeed it's more critical than that, and ultimately the events of a hundred years ago are illustrative of what happens when engagement with the parliamentary process breaks down. The home rule process in Ireland was largely embedded for better or worse in the Westminster system for decades, with both the Home Rule League and the Irish Parliamentary Party regularly sending 80odd MPs out of Ireland's 100 odd representatives. It probably would have ended in some kind of extreme form of federalism.

It was once the parliamentary system broke down, with the creation of the Ulster Volunteers (militia) and the Catholic equivalent the IVF, that the Irish Parliamentary Party was gutted and the Westminster process collapsed. The IVF/IRB seized the initiative created by the Easter Uprising establishing that movement's political wing,: Sinn Féin. SF never believed in a political route to Home Rule. The end result was civil war and Independence and the obliteration of Irish Unionism outside of the North, something which despite the best efforts of Parnell and the like, had always carried a fair amount of heft.

The lesson? Scotland doesn't inevitably have to be independent, but beware of radicalising moderates and demeaning the parliamentary process.

I do worry that the British establishment is blind to the uncanny resonances from the Irish experience. No lessons learned, no memory. And certain elements of the nats merrily playing that auld tune of division.

[SilverSixer]

jsf said:

SilverSixer said:

That would indeed baffle anyone who thinks hat the EU "controls" its member states. If that were the case, the UK wouldn't be notifying them that we're leaving.

The EU does currently control UK trade agreements.
The EU does currently control migration policy from the other 27 member states.

To suggest the EU doesn't control anything, because it doesn't control everything, is pretty dumb.

It controls nothing. It is controlled by the decisions of the elected representatives of its member states, us included.

To misunderstand how the EU works and get all upset with it for invalid reasons is the "pretty dumb" thing. Sure, if you don't like it, I'm sure you're happy we're leaving. But perhaps get the facts straight first before making your mind up.

Scotland clearly wants to remain in the EU, by a majority vote, and England doesn't. Some think that EU membership is more important than the UK Union, some don't. How are we going to resolve the matter? How are we going to let people have their say and reach a conclusion on how we should proceed, based on a majority decision? I'm not sure a straight Independence vote is the answer, any more than most on here, but we need to come up with some other way to cement the wishes of the people if that's the case, otherwise the SNP is just going to bulldozer another vote through, probably lose, not shut up and round and round we'll go again.

[London424]

SilverSixer said:

jsf said:

SilverSixer said:

That would indeed baffle anyone who thinks hat the EU "controls" its member states. If that were the case, the UK wouldn't be notifying them that we're leaving.

The EU does currently control UK trade agreements.
The EU does currently control migration policy from the other 27 member states.

To suggest the EU doesn't control anything, because it doesn't control everything, is pretty dumb.

It controls nothing. It is controlled by the decisions of the elected representatives of its member states, us included.

To misunderstand how the EU works and get all upset with it for invalid reasons is the "pretty dumb" thing. Sure, if you don't like it, I'm sure you're happy we're leaving. But perhaps get the facts straight first before making your mind up.

Scotland clearly wants to remain in the EU, by a majority vote, and England doesn't. Some think that EU membership is more important than the UK Union, some don't. How are we going to resolve the matter? How are we going to let people have their say and reach a conclusion on how we should proceed, based on a majority decision? I'm not sure a straight Independence vote is the answer, any more than most on here, but we need to come up with some other way to cement the wishes of the people if that's the case, otherwise the SNP is just going to bulldozer another vote through, probably lose, not shut up and round and round we'll go again.

The problem is that what Scotland wants it can't have. It is leaving the EU one way or another. An independence vote meant leaving the UK and the EU. Staying with the UK now means leaving the EU. Whatever way you look at it, they're out.