Martin Mcguinnes dead
Discussion
Ructions said:
Martin McGuinness never went to war, the war came to him. It came to his streets, it came to his city, it came to his community.
If he's true it always believed in peace, surely he'd have gone a different way about it than becoming, at the age of 21, second-in-command of the IRA.Biker 1 said:
The BBC as our 'national treasure' have an awful lot to answer for, putting his name up in lights like that.
As a minimum, his death should have been advertised as footnote obituary, not a screaming headline as if he was some sort of rock-god hero.
Agreed, disgusting.As a minimum, his death should have been advertised as footnote obituary, not a screaming headline as if he was some sort of rock-god hero.
The BBC need to take a long hard look at themselves.
Biker 1 said:
The BBC as our 'national treasure' have an awful lot to answer for, putting his name up in lights like that.
As a minimum, his death should have been advertised as footnote obituary, not a screaming headline as if he was some sort of rock-god hero.
Regardless of your views on him, he was a significant figure in Irish politics and the recent history of NI. As such, you would expect his death to be well publicised.As a minimum, his death should have been advertised as footnote obituary, not a screaming headline as if he was some sort of rock-god hero.
But, you know, BBC!!! RAGE!!!!
Jinx said:
BOR said:
What concrete alternative did the nationalist population have ? The civil rights movement was met with violence and complete intransigence from the UK/Unionists. Unfortunately a campaign of PIRA violence was the only available option, as sickening as it was.
There are always other options. Nationalist were the minority.
Today not so much.
Uncle John said:
Biker 1 said:
The BBC as our 'national treasure' have an awful lot to answer for, putting his name up in lights like that.
As a minimum, his death should have been advertised as footnote obituary, not a screaming headline as if he was some sort of rock-god hero.
Agreed, disgusting.As a minimum, his death should have been advertised as footnote obituary, not a screaming headline as if he was some sort of rock-god hero.
The BBC need to take a long hard look at themselves.
TTwiggy said:
Regardless of your views on him, he was a significant figure in Irish politics and the recent history of NI. As such, you would expect his death to be well publicised.
But, you know, BBC!!! RAGE!!!!
So put his name up in lights on the NI bit of their website if they must - personally I find the whole thing very distasteful.But, you know, BBC!!! RAGE!!!!
Biker 1 said:
TTwiggy said:
Regardless of your views on him, he was a significant figure in Irish politics and the recent history of NI. As such, you would expect his death to be well publicised.
But, you know, BBC!!! RAGE!!!!
So put his name up in lights on the NI bit of their website if they must - personally I find the whole thing very distasteful.But, you know, BBC!!! RAGE!!!!
I've no love for the man and the things he did were repellent, however having read up a bit on NI history I can see that his and many other's actions were a product of the situation in which they found themselves at the time, and that neither 'side' could be described as without blame for the situation NI found itself in, it's no excuse but if you are objective you can see why people felt justified in doing what they did.
It's a situation that's still happening in many of the less desirable parts of the world, people growing up in bad places going on to do bad things.
What I find particularly sad and ironic is that McGuinness ended up sharing an office with his arch enemy with whom he became best buddies, and that so many had to die or be maimed or had their families torn apart for those two in particular to realise that in the grand scheme of things we are all the same, we all s
t in the same pot, two wrongs don't make a right and that for all our advances we're just monkeys who enjoy throwing rocks at each other, lets hope future generations learn from their mistakes.
I think what John Major said was pretty spot on, that what he did in the early part of his life was unforgiveable but what he went on to do should be recognised as well, many people are saying the same thing, it could be that they've got a point.
It's a situation that's still happening in many of the less desirable parts of the world, people growing up in bad places going on to do bad things.
What I find particularly sad and ironic is that McGuinness ended up sharing an office with his arch enemy with whom he became best buddies, and that so many had to die or be maimed or had their families torn apart for those two in particular to realise that in the grand scheme of things we are all the same, we all s
t in the same pot, two wrongs don't make a right and that for all our advances we're just monkeys who enjoy throwing rocks at each other, lets hope future generations learn from their mistakes.I think what John Major said was pretty spot on, that what he did in the early part of his life was unforgiveable but what he went on to do should be recognised as well, many people are saying the same thing, it could be that they've got a point.
marcosgt said:
Don't be silly, it's only the BBC that distort the news, to their Communist agenda! 
M.
The irony is that if the BBC had buried this news at the bottom of a regional page it would have been a deliberately contrary move, given the front page coverage everywhere else. Which would hardly tick the 'impartial' box.M.
I'm disappointed at how many people are prepared to excuse his actions. I'm sure there'll be a reasonable period for the family to mourn him, then a wiki leaks/Russian leak of information about his murderous past will put his post death beatification in context, or he'll turn out to be one of the many IRA who did put their family first and informed for the Security Services.
20 years ago in April, WMP Officers found two viable bombs under the M6 in Walsall. A few months later I was searching the same bridges for devices based on the ongoing threats - after his supposed reformation.
I'm pragmatic enough to accept that NI wouldn't get better without a peace process involving accepting past acts of terrorism and agreeing not to prosecute them. McGuinness never apologised for his crimes, whilst British soldiers are still being investigated Blair allowed a one directional agreement on amnesty.
I can't and won't forgive and forget his murderous crimes based on the information we have, but I can accept them for what they are and in the spirit of moving forward I can see why the focus is on his political work. The uncritical praise of this family man is just obscene though.
20 years ago in April, WMP Officers found two viable bombs under the M6 in Walsall. A few months later I was searching the same bridges for devices based on the ongoing threats - after his supposed reformation.
I'm pragmatic enough to accept that NI wouldn't get better without a peace process involving accepting past acts of terrorism and agreeing not to prosecute them. McGuinness never apologised for his crimes, whilst British soldiers are still being investigated Blair allowed a one directional agreement on amnesty.
I can't and won't forgive and forget his murderous crimes based on the information we have, but I can accept them for what they are and in the spirit of moving forward I can see why the focus is on his political work. The uncritical praise of this family man is just obscene though.
He was scum, always.
The only reason he jumped to the good guy role was because PIRA was screwed - they were on their knees. They were riddled with informants, from the bottom to the top, by people who wanted it all to stop. People like him perpetuated it for their own benefit as they'd become nothing more than thugs and criminals, and they couldn't get away with it anymore.
The only reason he jumped to the good guy role was because PIRA was screwed - they were on their knees. They were riddled with informants, from the bottom to the top, by people who wanted it all to stop. People like him perpetuated it for their own benefit as they'd become nothing more than thugs and criminals, and they couldn't get away with it anymore.
Biker 1 said:
TTwiggy said:
It's the lead story on the ITV news site. It's the lead story on the Mail Online (complete with pictures of him shaking hands with a grinning HRH). You are welcome to find it distasteful but to make it a BBC issue is disingenuous at best.
King Herald said:
A brief glance at the history of the English in Ireland will give an inkling of why some Irish are so bitter toward English rule.
White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
I agree with your post but would modify a little. You should have said what some are told about slavery, the famine, etc is mainly myth. The facts paint a very different picture.White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
The poor in Ireland were treated the same as the poor on the mainland. There is ample to support this. The rich and powerful in general did not give a damn about the ‘undeserving’ poor, ie the poor.
Records show that there were more deaths through starvation in ‘England’, which I assume included Wales, than in Ireland during the potato famine. Percentages are difficult to support but there would appear to be little doubt that before the famine you had a better chance of survival being poor in Ireland than in England.
The USA did not send fleets of ships stocked with supplies. In fact the majority of ships that delivered famine relief were from England/Wales, but well late. I would assume there were some from Scotland but the research I read did not include them.
The famine was caused by the dependence on a monoculture, one that some ‘English’ tried to remove. The deaths were cause because the was no structure for famine relief, and a religious belief in the poor being the cause of their own problems.
What the ruling mob did to the Irish as well as to those on the mainland was horrific. Those that did it to the poor are all now dead. It's well past the time to move on.
History is fascinating. It is an endless source of excitement. It is easy to abuse for political ends though.
crankedup said:
How exactly did this bloke die, in agony I hope.
I'm not sure you really mean that, because if you did, what you're saying is that the palliative care he was receiving from the health professions was being clouded by his personal indiscretions of the past. Which no matter how bad or otherwise, aren't relevant to how Doctors treat patients. At worse, I'd say he reaped what he sewed. Most of use look forward to a long, happy and restful retirement. He no longer will.
Derek Smith said:
King Herald said:
A brief glance at the history of the English in Ireland will give an inkling of why some Irish are so bitter toward English rule.
White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
I agree with your post but would modify a little. You should have said what some are told about slavery, the famine, etc is mainly myth. The facts paint a very different picture.White slavery, the selling of Irishmen as slaves, the potato blight, the resultant famines, etc etc, all caused by the English.
And while I can't blame them for wanting their piece of the British, the blind and indiscriminate bombing of the public that the IRA were responsible for is unforgivable.,
The poor in Ireland were treated the same as the poor on the mainland. There is ample to support this. The rich and powerful in general did not give a damn about the ‘undeserving’ poor, ie the poor.
Records show that there were more deaths through starvation in ‘England’, which I assume included Wales, than in Ireland during the potato famine. Percentages are difficult to support but there would appear to be little doubt that before the famine you had a better chance of survival being poor in Ireland than in England.
The USA did not send fleets of ships stocked with supplies. In fact the majority of ships that delivered famine relief were from England/Wales, but well late. I would assume there were some from Scotland but the research I read did not include them.
The famine was caused by the dependence on a monoculture, one that some ‘English’ tried to remove. The deaths were cause because the was no structure for famine relief, and a religious belief in the poor being the cause of their own problems.
What the ruling mob did to the Irish as well as to those on the mainland was horrific. Those that did it to the poor are all now dead. It's well past the time to move on.
History is fascinating. It is an endless source of excitement. It is easy to abuse for political ends though.
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