Martin Mcguinnes dead
Discussion
S11Steve said:
kurt535 said:
Can't disagree very nasty covert stuff did go on but way above your average squaddie's payscale sitting in their sangar waiting for an RPG or sniper round.
There's still a lot of people bitter about the "random" house searches carried out by the Army, but invariably it was to create a distraction whilst one of the Det went in and bugged another local house. All the locals would come out to jeer and throw things at the search party, leaving the undercover guys to go about their work unhindered.I'm pretty certain that even though the high level role McGuinness had was widely known, there is probably good reason why he was never brought in for anything, and time will tell whether he was on two opposing payrolls.
Double agents went through meat slicers, like Mr. Nairac
SMcP114 said:
My favourite post on the whole thread. Amazing. Friendly house searches as a distraction and Marty was a double agent.
Double agents went through meat slicers, like Mr. Nairac
Only when they were caught.Double agents went through meat slicers, like Mr. Nairac
He did some awful things, and sanctioned some awful things. But what I've concluded is that if someone had put a bullet in his head forty years ago there would have been someone else to take his place - dozens maybe.
The fact is that he did come to the table, and he did make the IRA put down their guns. Northern Ireland is at peace now (more or less) as a result. Not many men would or could have done that.
chris390 said:
In the main the British forces were there to support the police and treat both sides in the same manor but there were over the years units set up to work in a fairly isolated way with limited reporting structures, and although there are numerous tin hat stories of their opperations there is little doubt they aided Unionist in various ways and also allowed IRA opperations in order to maintain anonimity of agents in IRA cells. I have no inside information but had a freind in the FRU, pic below.
Of course you do. 
JuniorD said:
omniflow said:
citizensm1th said:
McGuinnes considered himself from the very start to be a soldier engaged in unrestricted warfare against britian,no target was out of bounds in his mind.He was spotted as a rising star from the very start in the republican movement and swiftly moved through the ranks by virtue of his intelligence and total ruthlessness. (and quite possibly help from british secret services allegedly).
This is the part of the entire sorry tale that I really have a big problem with. If he, and the IRA, truly were soldiers engaged in unrestricted warfare against Britain, then surely Britain would have been totally in line with International Law to engage in unrestricted warfare against the IRA - possibly subject to a couple of formal announcements.Had we done this, then the IRA would have been wiped off the face of the earth within six months. Sure, there would have been some collateral damage, and a fair few additional people would have been recruited to the "cause" - but it would have been quicker and much more effective than what actually happened. Far fewer innocent people would have died as a result.
100% he was a terrorist - all the way up until Sunday, when he became a dead terrorist.
Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 25th March 10:39
Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 25th March 10:40
Mario149 said:
. . . (in my opinion it wasn't a war in that sense) . . .
The PIRA saw themselves as soldiers at war.Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 25th March 10:39
Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 25th March 10:40
To my mind it was a civil war. The fact that the British response was moderate does not lower the threshold.
When compared to other disputes around the world where insurgents are after a part of a country the result has normally been pitched battles. In NI there have been complaints on this thread about early morning searches.
Police searches where a violent, especially potentially deadly, response might be likely are normally conducted in the wee smalls because that lowers the chances of injury, and not only to the searches, but bystanders and suspects as well. On top of that many of these searches were in areas where the suspect might be expected to generate support from locals of similar disposition. Many otherwise mouthy rebels might not be quite so keen when they have to leave the bed after only and hour or so's sleep.
There are many definitions of what constitutes a war. Some suggest it might have something to do with the number of casualties, but that seems nonsensical. The PiRA were after a take-over of a part of the UK and used force as their main weapon.
A war.
The soldiers were there for policing purposes but that did not stop them getting shot on patrol.
Mario149 said:
This may be a simplistic answer to the question, but for me it is about intent. I'm absolutely certain that on occasion the British Army committed, for want of a better phrase, war crimes (in my opinion it wasn't a war in that sense). And that some excessive force leading to unnecessary civilian casualties was evident. But all that for me is a far, far cry from the IRAs actions of say planting a bomb in say a shopping centre, or pulling over a bus full of random people and shooting them all dead, where the initial intent and ultimate goal is to kill civilians. That's not making an ethical/moral military decision based on collateral damage/civilian risk vs military reward of the operation, that's pure murder. If the IRA had only limited their attacks to soldiers and the odd civilian got caught in the cross fire, that might be understandable and in the subsequent peace, forgivable. Or if the British Army had gone "total war" and started dropping bombs from warplanes onto Catholic areas just because they might contains IRA members. But to my understanding that was manifestly not the case.
So you're saying the British army didn't kill civilians in Northern Ireland?Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 25th March 10:39
Edited by Mario149 on Saturday 25th March 10:40
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