I love the EU because...

[Mandalore]

turbobloke said:

Mandalore said:

turbobloke said:

4x4Tyke said:

gruffalo said:

The same can be said for the leave argument, Econmics, human rights , etc!

It depends on your perspective.

No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.

The economy has suffered how exactly?

Early Doors One Month After Brexit VOTE (DT)
Unemployment is down, prices are steady, shoppers are confident and the government ran a budget surplus in July. The first economic data for July – the month following the Brexit referendum – was published this week, and shows no signs of an immediate economic collapse. It is early days and a slowdown is still expected, but the data are reassuring so far.

Slowdown, ho ho ho.

Longer-Term Position is Much Better with Boom not Bust e.g. Six Months Later (DE)
FTSE 100 hits new record high in Britain's Brexit economy boom as the positive economic news continues to flow following the Brexit vote.

The Future of the UK Economy Is Looking Bright(TS)
UK set for Brexit boom in 2017 as top business bosses have shown a boost in confidence in the UK economy.

Security scaremongering was quickly debunked by experienced security professionals and we saw headlines after the security porkies such as "Ex head of MI6 argues Brexit would not harm security" also "Brexit won't harm UK security, says US former spy chief" and perhaps best of all "Brexit will NOT damage UK security, admits EU". Just like the 3 million unemployed, the instant and year-long recession, the multi-£billion emergency budget and the sky falling in, it's baseless scaremongering.

As to future rights, as that crystal ball is performing so well what are the numbers for tomorrow's Euromillions? We can keep it between ourselves, nobody will notice.

March 29th, a good day in the offing and the Leaving, including for the UK economy.

Far be it for me to lift up your rose-tinted shades Turbobloke, but.


Brexit hasn't happened yet. All we have had so far is the vote.

Trying to assess the full impact at this point in time would be like - deciding to go out to a restaurant for a meal and then saying how full up you are, long before you even leave your house, or look at the menu to see what they serve.


Summary: Too soon to say.

My post only mentioned the vote, you highlighted it (thanks) and nowhere did I say we had left the EU. More coffee is always welcome but not at that level of need.

It's only too soon to say how much better things will be than the already improved situation we now see.

I assumed it was an oversight on your part and added the word VOTE to the first line of your post.

It was originally thus(word for word)

turbobloke said:

The economy has suffered how exactly?

Early Doors One Month After Brexit (DT)
Unemployment is down, prices are steady, shoppers are confident and the government ran a budget surplus in July. The first economic data for July – the month following the Brexit referendum – was published this week, and shows no signs of an immediate economic collapse. It is early days and a slowdown is still expected, but the data are reassuring so far.

.

In terms of 'better' or 'worse' people are currently planning for the worst in my industry and simply waiting to see 'how much worse' before committing capital to moving jobs and businesses off shore.

Nobody I speak to professionally about the exit from the EEC is expecting things to get better, sadly.

[turbobloke]

Righto and thanks, I had considered that the DT headline was clear in its meaning (we all know A50 will be invoked on 29/3) hence the misunderstanding, but appreciate the clarification.

I remain of the view that the present is already better and the future will be better still.

[turbobloke]

Looking back at the relevant post again, and while it's appropriate to make the correction as per my edit, claiming a headline specified as one month after (the Brexit referendum) should be interpreted as the UK having left the EU (purely due to a common use of the term Brexit), is purposely splitting hairs so far that even L'Oréal wouldn't be worth it.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Mandalore said:

turbobloke said:

Mandalore said:

turbobloke said:

4x4Tyke said:

gruffalo said:

The same can be said for the leave argument, Econmics, human rights , etc!

It depends on your perspective.

No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.

The economy has suffered how exactly?

Early Doors One Month After Brexit VOTE (DT)
Unemployment is down, prices are steady, shoppers are confident and the government ran a budget surplus in July. The first economic data for July – the month following the Brexit referendum – was published this week, and shows no signs of an immediate economic collapse. It is early days and a slowdown is still expected, but the data are reassuring so far.

Slowdown, ho ho ho.

Longer-Term Position is Much Better with Boom not Bust e.g. Six Months Later (DE)
FTSE 100 hits new record high in Britain's Brexit economy boom as the positive economic news continues to flow following the Brexit vote.

The Future of the UK Economy Is Looking Bright(TS)
UK set for Brexit boom in 2017 as top business bosses have shown a boost in confidence in the UK economy.

Security scaremongering was quickly debunked by experienced security professionals and we saw headlines after the security porkies such as "Ex head of MI6 argues Brexit would not harm security" also "Brexit won't harm UK security, says US former spy chief" and perhaps best of all "Brexit will NOT damage UK security, admits EU". Just like the 3 million unemployed, the instant and year-long recession, the multi-£billion emergency budget and the sky falling in, it's baseless scaremongering.

As to future rights, as that crystal ball is performing so well what are the numbers for tomorrow's Euromillions? We can keep it between ourselves, nobody will notice.

March 29th, a good day in the offing and the Leaving, including for the UK economy.

Far be it for me to lift up your rose-tinted shades Turbobloke, but.


Brexit hasn't happened yet. All we have had so far is the vote.

Trying to assess the full impact at this point in time would be like - deciding to go out to a restaurant for a meal and then saying how full up you are, long before you even leave your house, or look at the menu to see what they serve.


Summary: Too soon to say.

My post only mentioned the vote, you highlighted it (thanks) and nowhere did I say we had left the EU. More coffee is always welcome but not at that level of need.

It's only too soon to say how much better things will be than the already improved situation we now see.

I assumed it was an oversight on your part and added the word VOTE to the first line of your post.

It was originally thus(word for word)

turbobloke said:

The economy has suffered how exactly?

Early Doors One Month After Brexit (DT)
Unemployment is down, prices are steady, shoppers are confident and the government ran a budget surplus in July. The first economic data for July – the month following the Brexit referendum – was published this week, and shows no signs of an immediate economic collapse. It is early days and a slowdown is still expected, but the data are reassuring so far.

.

In terms of 'better' or 'worse' people are currently planning for the worst in my industry and simply waiting to see 'how much worse' before committing capital to moving jobs and businesses off shore.

Nobody I speak to professionally about the exit from the EEC is expecting things to get better, sadly.

The problem for the remain side is that they cannot even guarantee how long the EU will continue to exist, after its second largest net contributor of funds leaves the EU.
How long Germany and its taxpayers will want to continue to fund many of the EU states that are currently in dire financial positions, and net recipients of EU funding on its own, is a questionable point.
Many EU member states that are currently net recipients of EU funding, will find themselves not only having that funding stopped, but also being asked to contribute positively to, rather than take out funds from EU coffers. How many will actually want to stay in the EU, after that point is reached is also a questionable point.
It is in every body`s interest, that both the EU and UK do well after Brexit, particularly if the UK`s departure triggers a deep, and much needed set of reforms in how the EU is run.
Whether or not the EU avoids being vindictive, and is bright enough to allow Brexit to trigger much needed internal reforms, will be the key point for its survival. As always. interesting times lay ahead.

[SeeFive]

turbobloke said:

Looking back at the relevant post again, and while it's appropriate to make the correction as per my edit, claiming a headline specified as one month after (the Brexit referendum) should be interpreted as the UK having left the EU (purely due to a common use of the term Brexit), is purposely splitting hairs so far that even L'Oréal wouldn't be worth it.

Well every expert and financial analyst seemed to infer that the vote meant we had left. You only had to look at the impact on the £ to see that the so called "experts" had already called it on the back of what was said on the run up to the vote, rather than looking at how it panned out in reality.

I am still happy with my vote to exit, and still hold the experts and financial instrument manipulators (gamblers) solely responsible for any negative impact on our economy before the actual consequences had a chance to be proven. Like TB, I don't think it will be as bad as it has been painted. Stil too early to call IMHO.

[GetCarter]

PH XKR said:

Sylvaforever said:

GetCarter said:

O/P. Just watch what happens in 2019 - 2025. Then you'll see why, even though we all hate the EU, the alternative is much, much worse (especially if you are working class PAYE)

It will be a delight to see you proven wrong, although I can understand your frustration at the loss of all those "free" road infrastructure improvements in the Highlands.

Got to love good old Carter commenting on poor PAYE whilst he uses his finances and the other tax dodges to maximize his very comfortable nest egg. Oh it must be awful worrying about those that deliver his shopping.

I don't even know where to start to respond to this nonsense. I worked for 40 years to build and pay for my house, and have never dodged a tax in my life. You sir, know nothing of which you speak. Get a grip.

[Mandalore]

Pan Pan Pan said:

The problem for the remain side is that they cannot even guarantee how long the EU will continue to exist, after its second largest net contributor of funds leaves the EU.
How long Germany and its taxpayers will want to continue to fund many of the EU states that are currently in dire financial positions, and net recipients of EU funding on its own, is a questionable point.
Many EU member states that are currently net recipients of EU funding, will find themselves not only having that funding stopped, but also being asked to contribute positively to, rather than take out funds from EU coffers. How many will actually want to stay in the EU, after that point is reached is also a questionable point.
It is in every body`s interest, that both the EU and UK do well after Brexit, particularly if the UK`s departure triggers a deep, and much needed set of reforms in how the EU is run.
Whether or not the EU avoids being vindictive, and is bright enough to allow Brexit to trigger much needed internal reforms, will be the key point for its survival. As always. interesting times lay ahead.

I'm not sure hoping that the EU will play fair and not be vindictive (in your words) is a good strategy.

Germany, France, Spain, Ireland and Luxembourg are already approaching all the International banks with overtures to move their European headquarters-away from the UK. (And iback nto the European market place). And we haven't even seen a formal negotiation yet.

[PH XKR]

GetCarter said:

PH XKR said:

Sylvaforever said:

GetCarter said:

O/P. Just watch what happens in 2019 - 2025. Then you'll see why, even though we all hate the EU, the alternative is much, much worse (especially if you are working class PAYE)

It will be a delight to see you proven wrong, although I can understand your frustration at the loss of all those "free" road infrastructure improvements in the Highlands.

Got to love good old Carter commenting on poor PAYE whilst he uses his finances and the other tax dodges to maximize his very comfortable nest egg. Oh it must be awful worrying about those that deliver his shopping.

I don't even know where to start to respond to this nonsense. I worked for 40 years to build and pay for my house, and have never dodged a tax in my life. You sir, know nothing of which you speak. Get a grip.

as I am unqualified to comment on your wealth, you are unqualified to make such a crass statement about how PAYE will be much worse off.

Stay or leave, there was no certainty on future financial affairs though, of course, if its bad news its brexit. Lets see what happens in the EU without the English cash cow.

[Rich_W]

oyster said:

1. The loss of easy access to live and work in 27+ other countries, especially for future children. I think some people were more outraged that this effect was decided by many who didn't want such facilities for themselves, but were happy to deny it for others.

This one makes me laugh. If you are a talented individual (lets say in Finance) there is no way employers in Frankfurt would not do whatever they could to get you to work there. So it's not a problem in the real world. Secondly most of the people that cite this (on TV at least) are not talented individuals and have some odd romantic notion of working aboard. Probably a summer in Ibiza getting ruined as a rep. And these untalenteds probably don't have another language in their head. SO hardly missing out as they were never going to go anyway

oyster said:

2. The decision made by many people mostly unaffected by immigration to vote leave. Particularly an issue in the southern home counties where some areas with almost no immigrants still voted in favour of leave.

I'd say it was the complete reverse. People directly affected by immigration driving down low skill wages voted leave. People unaffected tended towards Remain.

oyster said:

3. The age factor. I think this one really made people angry - some people resented the idea that swathes of people with only a few years to live were making decisions that would affect younger people for many more years than it would affect them. Not a factor at general elections as there's another one in 5 years, but with the EU referendum this was a decision for life.

I DETEST this. It wasn't JSUT the older generation that voted for Leave. Just like it wasn't just racists that voted for Trump. It's ageist bullst dreamed up by spoilt little s like Lilly Allen.

oyster said:

4. The business growth argument - most colleagues and business contacts like the ease with which trade with EU partners, clients, suppliers and business units was done. Same rules, no visas, little/no tariffs. And for recruitment - a massively wider talent pool to choose from.

We are STILL going to trade with the EU. And recruitment is good because low payers can bring in low IQ Bulgarians and Macedonians to work for nmw.

oyster said:

5. The culture argument. One I'm quite sympathetic to. I love the explosion in foreign culture in the UK now. So much choice of restaurants, cafes, art etc. I love roast beef and an ale at the pub, but I like it mixed with some Portuguese cakes and Polish beer.

We aren't going to be burning down Polski Shleps! We have Lebanese cuisine in the UK. Last I checked that wasn't part of the EU.

4x4Tyke said:

The pro-EU stance is supported by rational self interest, it is not an irrational emotional choice.

You think I wasn't rational when I voted Leave? You think I didn't weight up the current situation, what I liked and disliked. Then weighed up the options under Remain and LEave for the medium long term future? One of a multitude of reasons I voted Leave is because the EU is dying. It's not really working for the major players in the system. Eventually it will implode under "more Europe" Lets get a head start.

4x4Tyke said:

No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.

I don't see that. Maybe you could garnish some facts? EU/Pound is where it was in 2011 FFS

Inflation is at 2.3% In the 70s it was 25%! Even Carney was forced to admit it isn't as bad as they said.


I swear the Remoaners WANT the country to die a slow protacted death. It wont but it would fill their hearts with glee. They ignore places like Switzerland or Iceland or Norway who do well outside the EU because it doesn't fit with their desire for failure.

I imagine in former lives they were the people decrying the industrial revolution. "Thigns are perfect now, we must never change, I don't like change. It will only go wrong"

I imagine they don't achieve much in life. Never ask for a pay rise. Never go for a more difficult job. Never choose to learn an instrument or a language. Never achieve sporting goals.

Edited by Rich_W on Thursday 23 March 21:57

[anonymous-user]

Mandalore said:

France, Spain, Ireland and Luxembourg are already approaching all the International banks with overtures to move their European headquarters-away from the UK. (And iback nto the European market place). And we haven't even seen a formal negotiation yet.

You may as well throw in Portugal and Estonia with those financial power houses

Which industry are you in that are grappling to escape Armageddon?

[Pan Pan Pan]

EU

Mandalore said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

The problem for the remain side is that they cannot even guarantee how long the EU will continue to exist, after its second largest net contributor of funds leaves the EU.
How long Germany and its taxpayers will want to continue to fund many of the EU states that are currently in dire financial positions, and net recipients of EU funding on its own, is a questionable point.
Many EU member states that are currently net recipients of EU funding, will find themselves not only having that funding stopped, but also being asked to contribute positively to, rather than take out funds from EU coffers. How many will actually want to stay in the EU, after that point is reached is also a questionable point.
It is in every body`s interest, that both the EU and UK do well after Brexit, particularly if the UK`s departure triggers a deep, and much needed set of reforms in how the EU is run.
Whether or not the EU avoids being vindictive, and is bright enough to allow Brexit to trigger much needed internal reforms, will be the key point for its survival. As always. interesting times lay ahead.

I'm not sure hoping that the EU will play fair and not be vindictive (in your words) is a good strategy.

Germany, France, Spain, Ireland and Luxembourg are already approaching all the International banks with overtures to move their European headquarters-away from the UK. (And iback nto the European market place). And we haven't even seen a formal negotiation yet.

Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, even France have colossal (particularly youth) unemployment problems, and deep problems with their financial position, to say nothing of all the other member states, with similar difficulties (which is why over 300 thousand a year are trying to get OUT of the EU, and into the UK even though they know the UK is leaving the EU). Are you saying these count,ries are petulantly going to try to take their over draughts elsewhere? Once the UK exits the EU, only Germany will be left as a significant net contributor `into' EU coffers. How long do you suppose the German taxpayer will want to fund the EU to keep it alive after the UK leaves?

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Friday 24th March 00:10

[anonymous-user]

Well this is promising at least. One imagines DB are reasonably well connected in ze Fatherland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/23/deu...

[Mandalore]

Pan Pan Pan said:

EU

Mandalore said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

The problem for the remain side is that they cannot even guarantee how long the EU will continue to exist, after its second largest net contributor of funds leaves the EU.
How long Germany and its taxpayers will want to continue to fund many of the EU states that are currently in dire financial positions, and net recipients of EU funding on its own, is a questionable point.
Many EU member states that are currently net recipients of EU funding, will find themselves not only having that funding stopped, but also being asked to contribute positively to, rather than take out funds from EU coffers. How many will actually want to stay in the EU, after that point is reached is also a questionable point.
It is in every body`s interest, that both the EU and UK do well after Brexit, particularly if the UK`s departure triggers a deep, and much needed set of reforms in how the EU is run.
Whether or not the EU avoids being vindictive, and is bright enough to allow Brexit to trigger much needed internal reforms, will be the key point for its survival. As always. interesting times lay ahead.

I'm not sure hoping that the EU will play fair and not be vindictive (in your words) is a good strategy.

Germany, France, Spain, Ireland and Luxembourg are already approaching all the International banks with overtures to move their European headquarters-away from the UK. (And iback nto the European market place). And we haven't even seen a formal negotiation yet.

Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, even France have colossal (particularly youth) unemployment problems, and deep problems with their financial position, to say nothing of all the other member states, with similar difficulties (which is why over 300 thousand a year are trying to get OUT of the EU, and into the UK even though they know the UK is leaving the EU). Are you saying these count,ries are petulantly going to try to take their over draughts elsewhere? Once the UK exits the EU, only Germany will be left as a significant net contributor `into' EU coffers. How long do you suppose the German taxpayer will want to fund the EU to keep it alive after the UK leaves?

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Friday 24th March 00:10

I


It obvious that the op and many people think that remainers voted so, because they wanted to stay in the EU, (be cause they 'love' it). A direct opposite Ying to their Yang etc...

That's simply wasnt the motivation for the vast majority at all, as probably everyone in the country hates the bloated non elected political elite.



The true reason was that many people realised that 'change' would put us in a bad position as Europe will try their hardest to grab what they can from a stronger bargaining position.

You obviously feel that they need us, simply because of the money we currently pay in.
I'm sure they worked out a way round that on the first day after the vote.

[Einion Yrth]

Mandalore said:

The true reason was that many people realised that 'change' would put us in a bad position as Europe will try their hardest to grab what they can from a stronger bargaining position.

You obviously feel that they need us, simply because of the money we currently pay in.
I'm sure they worked out a way round that on the first day after the vote.

You certainly have a more favorable view of their competence than I.

[anonymous-user]

Mandalore said:

I'm not sure hoping that the EU will play fair and not be vindictive (in your words) is a good strategy.

Germany, France, Spain, Ireland and Luxembourg are already approaching all the International banks with overtures to move their European headquarters-away from the UK. (And iback nto the European market place). And we haven't even seen a formal negotiation yet.

Just to point out-them making overtures towards the banks isn't being vindictive at all! It's them trying to get the best deal for them. It's as stupid as accusing May of being vindictive for trying to get businesses to stay in the U.K. Post Brexit!!

There seems to be this desire to paint anything the EU does to try and get the best deal for the EU as 'punishing' the U.K. for leaving.

[FN2TypeR]

Hardly surprising considering the Juncker narrative. The man is a fking turd.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Mandalore said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

EU

Mandalore said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

The problem for the remain side is that they cannot even guarantee how long the EU will continue to exist, after its second largest net contributor of funds leaves the EU.
How long Germany and its taxpayers will want to continue to fund many of the EU states that are currently in dire financial positions, and net recipients of EU funding on its own, is a questionable point.
Many EU member states that are currently net recipients of EU funding, will find themselves not only having that funding stopped, but also being asked to contribute positively to, rather than take out funds from EU coffers. How many will actually want to stay in the EU, after that point is reached is also a questionable point.
It is in every body`s interest, that both the EU and UK do well after Brexit, particularly if the UK`s departure triggers a deep, and much needed set of reforms in how the EU is run.
Whether or not the EU avoids being vindictive, and is bright enough to allow Brexit to trigger much needed internal reforms, will be the key point for its survival. As always. interesting times lay ahead.

I'm not sure hoping that the EU will play fair and not be vindictive (in your words) is a good strategy.

Germany, France, Spain, Ireland and Luxembourg are already approaching all the International banks with overtures to move their European headquarters-away from the UK. (And iback nto the European market place). And we haven't even seen a formal negotiation yet.

Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, even France have colossal (particularly youth) unemployment problems, and deep problems with their financial position, to say nothing of all the other member states, with similar difficulties (which is why over 300 thousand a year are trying to get OUT of the EU, and into the UK even though they know the UK is leaving the EU). Are you saying these count,ries are petulantly going to try to take their over draughts elsewhere? Once the UK exits the EU, only Germany will be left as a significant net contributor `into' EU coffers. How long do you suppose the German taxpayer will want to fund the EU to keep it alive after the UK leaves?

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Friday 24th March 00:10

I


It obvious that the op and many people think that remainers voted so, because they wanted to stay in the EU, (be cause they 'love' it). A direct opposite Ying to their Yang etc...

That's simply wasnt the motivation for the vast majority at all, as probably everyone in the country hates the bloated non elected political elite.



The true reason was that many people realised that 'change' would put us in a bad position as Europe will try their hardest to grab what they can from a stronger bargaining position.

You obviously feel that they need us, simply because of the money we currently pay in.
I'm sure they worked out a way round that on the first day after the vote.

No. As we have seen the juggernaut that is the EU, does not do anything quickly or efficiently.
They need the UK, because despite the UK being the EU`s second greatest net contributor of funds into EU coffers, the UK is also the EU`s biggest single market. Strangely they don't seem to be able to sell as much, to people in countries which don't have the ability to pay for the goods and services they want to buy.
After the UK leaves the EU, the only EU country left which pays a significant amount net INTO EU coffers is Germany. How long do you think Germany`s tax payers will want to pay, to keep the failed EU alive? How long do you think France which already has financial difficulties will carry on (even as they are now) once the massive amounts they receive back from EU coffers via the CAP, starts to dwindle?
Germany realizes that if Brexit is made hard for the UK, the UK will have the option of looking elsewhere to do business, (which it probably will do as well anyway) So they will be in a position where they have a significantly reduced business market, as its main buyer of goods (the UK has had a trade deficit with the EU of 24 billion pounds in 2016 alone as it has had for almost every year since the UK joined the EEC) has just walked away, not helped by most of the rest of the EU screaming at them for more funds, to keep their dodgy economies alive (See Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and many of the newly admitted Eastern European countries for details)
When the UK re takes possession of the 80% of the fish stocks in UK territorial waters (seized without compensation when the UK joined the EEC) their position will be degraded still further. You really have just bought into all the doom and gloom that has been put out, hook, line, and sinker haven't you? without doing some research into what has happened between the UK and EU in the 40+ years since the UK joined the EU.

[anonymous-user]

SKP555 said:

Not trolling and not drinking.

There's loads of stuff about how stupid leave voters are and how poor we'll all be, and only very limited stuff about anything people like about the EU.

I can appreciate the desire for world government and also the acknowledgement that it isn't currently feasible. To me EU government remains unfeasible for the same reasons.

"Not trolling and not drinking". You don't deny tedious though.

You seem to be positively encouraging the view that leave voters are stupid! I don't agree with that. You are an exception though.

[oyster]

immigrant said:

oyster said:

SKP555


1. The loss of easy access to live and work in 27+ other countries, especially for future children. I think some people were more outraged that this effect was decided by many who didn't want such facilities for themselves, but were happy to deny it for others.

I really struggle with this. It is somewhere between vindictive scare-mongering or pure stupidity from people who don't bother to research things for themselves.

'Easy' access, even in the current situation of EU passport holder looking to work in alternate EU country, still has stipulations depending on the country in question. Registration with police, applying to the local townhall to stay longer than 90 days, ensuring you can actually obtain employment, applying for a residence card, demonstrating that you can support yourself, etc.

This will not and cannot change dramatically as the EU and UK job markets are intrinsically linked and co-dependent. At worst, some further administration will apply but nothing like what the UK imposes on non-EU professionals who add value to this economy. In the real world, you need to qualify to work in a different country, you actually have to be in demand and you have to demonstrate you are capable and that you can support yourself.

Nobody, nobody (!) has seriously suggested mass deportations or banning UK workers from EU countries.

If the further administration means work permits then it's a significant change. Like I said in my post, stop seeing through the eyes of a 'professional' and see it through the eyes of a youngster.

[oyster]

Rich_W said:

oyster said:

1. The loss of easy access to live and work in 27+ other countries, especially for future children. I think some people were more outraged that this effect was decided by many who didn't want such facilities for themselves, but were happy to deny it for others.

This one makes me laugh. If you are a talented individual (lets say in Finance) there is no way employers in Frankfurt would not do whatever they could to get you to work there. So it's not a problem in the real world. Secondly most of the people that cite this (on TV at least) are not talented individuals and have some odd romantic notion of working aboard. Probably a summer in Ibiza getting ruined as a rep. And these untalenteds probably don't have another language in their head. SO hardly missing out as they were never going to go anyway

oyster said:

2. The decision made by many people mostly unaffected by immigration to vote leave. Particularly an issue in the southern home counties where some areas with almost no immigrants still voted in favour of leave.

I'd say it was the complete reverse. People directly affected by immigration driving down low skill wages voted leave. People unaffected tended towards Remain.

oyster said:

3. The age factor. I think this one really made people angry - some people resented the idea that swathes of people with only a few years to live were making decisions that would affect younger people for many more years than it would affect them. Not a factor at general elections as there's another one in 5 years, but with the EU referendum this was a decision for life.

I DETEST this. It wasn't JSUT the older generation that voted for Leave. Just like it wasn't just racists that voted for Trump. It's ageist bullst dreamed up by spoilt little s like Lilly Allen.

oyster said:

4. The business growth argument - most colleagues and business contacts like the ease with which trade with EU partners, clients, suppliers and business units was done. Same rules, no visas, little/no tariffs. And for recruitment - a massively wider talent pool to choose from.

We are STILL going to trade with the EU. And recruitment is good because low payers can bring in low IQ Bulgarians and Macedonians to work for nmw.

oyster said:

5. The culture argument. One I'm quite sympathetic to. I love the explosion in foreign culture in the UK now. So much choice of restaurants, cafes, art etc. I love roast beef and an ale at the pub, but I like it mixed with some Portuguese cakes and Polish beer.

We aren't going to be burning down Polski Shleps! We have Lebanese cuisine in the UK. Last I checked that wasn't part of the EU.

4x4Tyke said:

The pro-EU stance is supported by rational self interest, it is not an irrational emotional choice.

You think I wasn't rational when I voted Leave? You think I didn't weight up the current situation, what I liked and disliked. Then weighed up the options under Remain and LEave for the medium long term future? One of a multitude of reasons I voted Leave is because the EU is dying. It's not really working for the major players in the system. Eventually it will implode under "more Europe" Lets get a head start.

4x4Tyke said:

No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.

I don't see that. Maybe you could garnish some facts? EU/Pound is where it was in 2011 FFS

Inflation is at 2.3% In the 70s it was 25%! Even Carney was forced to admit it isn't as bad as they said.


I swear the Remoaners WANT the country to die a slow protacted death. It wont but it would fill their hearts with glee. They ignore places like Switzerland or Iceland or Norway who do well outside the EU because it doesn't fit with their desire for failure.

I imagine in former lives they were the people decrying the industrial revolution. "Thigns are perfect now, we must never change, I don't like change. It will only go wrong"

I imagine they don't achieve much in life. Never ask for a pay rise. Never go for a more difficult job. Never choose to learn an instrument or a language. Never achieve sporting goals.

Edited by Rich_W on Thursday 23 March 21:57

It's sad how I, as a remain voter, can have a grown up debate with a leave voter and find that we still have lots in common. Because the reality is that there is very little difference between 95% of people who voted in the referendum. I was answering the OPs questions in a mature way - not necessarily opinions I have, but reflecting on opinions of other remain supporters I have seen and heard.

Then someone like you comes along (one of the 5%), who can't seem to accept that grey does exist between black and white. That there might be good and bad things about both leave and remain, and that normal, grown-up people make voting decisions based on a balance between these good and bad points.

To take each (and every) point in turn that I made and argue against them almost comes across as bias confirmation in your own head as much as anything else.

I also note that many of your replies go directly against facts as well. For example, you suggest that those most unaffected by immigration voted remain is simply untrue. London voted 60% remain yet has an enormous influx of immigrants. Sevenoaks, where I live, voted 54% leave yet has a tiny amount of EU migrants.