I love the EU because...

[judas]

bloomen said:

Give it 5-10 years. Everyone who didn't love the EU will pine for the good old days by then.

Keep hearing this sort of thing, but with nothing to back it up. Just comes across as the bitter dreams of a sore loser. Maybe you should stop whinging and help make a go of things?

[SKP555]

Vocal Minority said:

SKP555 - you have started what is essentially the same thread about 10 times now. Slight deviations on the same ultimate question.

If you want an answer - ok some of the tedious law making was...tedious. I guess its what happens when law is made by lawyers.

But I liked the idea that we were a big community. I liked the idea that we were open and inclusive.

I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.

I found it neighbourly, brotherly, even.

To me, Brexit feels like we're drawing up the draw bridge and staring over the ramparts uneasily at 'them' - suspicious of what they may do to 'us'.

And I don't like that.

I know many, many people differ, and I won't be changing their minds and what is done is done.

But that's just what I think.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 14:51

I do actually get that.

Do you feel the EU actually lives up to it though?

In some ways I feel that the forced unity creates more division than would be the case in a Europe of independent countries with close cooperation.

[blade runner]

Vocal Minority said:

CrutyRammers said:

Vocal Minority said:

I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.

Like a passport? When have you not been able to pop over and see the French in the same way as you can now? ISTR going there in the 80s without difficulty.

Yes but I would draw your attention to the bit where I was working.....

And I know its wishy washy and over liberal round here to like the principal of it - I just do.

I'm not expecting anyone to agree

I used to visit the Czech Republic regularly before they became part of the EU. Don't recall ever needing to do more than show my passport at either the airport in Prague or the road border outside Plzeň to get in though? They might have stamped it I guess but it was hardly much of a bother.

[Countdown]

FN2TypeR said:

It provides me with cheap and easy access to a host of European cities where the booze is cheap and the prostitutes are visually appealing.

#wemustremain

And also where the booze is visually appealing and the......

[immigrant]

CrutyRammers said:

Like a passport? When have you not been able to pop over and see the French in the same way as you can now? ISTR going there in the 80s without difficulty.

A bit like visiting the Republic of Ireland and lots of other places in Asia, Africa and the Americas - 90 days permissible without visa.

[Vocal Minority]

blade runner said:

Vocal Minority said:

CrutyRammers said:

Vocal Minority said:

I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.

Like a passport? When have you not been able to pop over and see the French in the same way as you can now? ISTR going there in the 80s without difficulty.

Yes but I would draw your attention to the bit where I was working.....

And I know its wishy washy and over liberal round here to like the principal of it - I just do.

I'm not expecting anyone to agree

I used to visit the Czech Republic regularly before they became part of the EU. Don't recall ever needing to do more than show my passport at either the airport in Prague or the road border outside Plze? to get in though? They might have stamped it I guess but it was hardly much of a bother.

Again....someone was employing me..... and also liverally wiberally wishy washy principal



(As an aside - this is something I find confusing. I voted remain (obviously), but as the referendum says leave, I'm not disputing it. I would actually feel pretty uncomfortable with it being blocked to be honest. But some people still seem to take it personally that remainers haven't been converted to leavers in the wake of the referendum... they won, why do they need to squeeze some sort of confession?!)

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 16:16

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 16:19

[crankedup]

Disastrous said:

It certainly is but to put the concept into simple terms that you should be able to follow:

Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.

That's something of a philosophy and I suspect lies at the core of the argument. You either agree with that or you don't and I would hazard a guess that a lot of the economics are sideshows to this in the sense that you either see unification as being economically good or bad as a result of your views on the above.

That about covers it for me.

Why is unification preferable to unity? When the Bulgaria and Romania became members how did the UK benifit. Also the dead weight of the Portugal, Spain and Greece is not. beneficial to the UK.

[crankedup]

Vocal Minority said:

SKP555 - you have started what is essentially the same thread about 10 times now. Slight deviations on the same ultimate question.

If you want an answer - ok some of the tedious law making was...tedious. I guess its what happens when law is made by lawyers.

But I liked the idea that we were a big community. I liked the idea that we were open and inclusive.

I like the idea I could pop over and see the French - or go and commentate at a 2 day motorsport event in the Czech Republic without needing a permit or visa or whatever.

I found it neighbourly, brotherly, even.

To me, Brexit feels like we're drawing up the draw bridge and staring over the ramparts uneasily at 'them' - suspicious of what they may do to 'us'.

And I don't like that.

I know many, many people differ, and I won't be changing their minds and what is done is done.

But that's just what I think.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 14:51

The drawbridge analogy works the other way around, plenty of people in mainland Europe are looking at the UK with envy, wishing they could vote in a referendum.

[TameRacingDriver]

judas said:

Keep hearing this sort of thing, but with nothing to back it up. Just comes across as the bitter dreams of a sore loser. Maybe you should stop whinging and help make a go of things?

Wont happen. They would rather be right than try and help make a go of things.

[Vocal Minority]

TameRacingDriver said:

Wont happen. They would rather be right than try and help make a go of things.

I think you'll find the majority will make a go of things.

Like they have a choice to do otherwise...I know some pretty hardcore remainers and they have accepted the result. May not like it, but they've accepted it.

I find a lot of leavers aren't satisfied to have gotten their own way and seem to be on a campaign to make sure every last remainer is brow beaten into saying the leavers were right.

I think some just need an enemy to fight, so pretend there are 16 million people on the brink of revolution to try and defeat the majority

[chow pan toon]

Vocal Minority said:

I think you'll find the majority will make a go of things.

Like they have a choice to do otherwise...I know some pretty hardcore remainers and they have accepted the result. May not like it, but they've accepted it.

I find a lot of leavers aren't satisfied to have gotten their own way and seem to be on a campaign to make sure every last remainer is brow beaten into saying the leavers were right.

I think some just need an enemy to fight, so pretend there are 16 million people on the brink of revolution to try and defeat the majority

Even Farage said that 48/52 would be unfinished business. Quite why Brexiteers are so surprised and angry that people on the losing side either aren't delighted or in some cases in denial about the result I don't know. A lot of the noisier brexiteers seem angry people in general so I guess it isn't much of a shock really.

[GetCarter]

To answer to O/P

We are more screwed without it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warr...

[Disastrous]

Funkycoldribena said:

Disastrous said:

It certainly is but to put the concept into simple terms that you should be able to follow:

Unification is preferable to division, especially in the world we currently live in.

Thank you Miss Venezuela.
And now for the swimsuit round...

So creepy to be sitting at your PC imaging me in a swimsuit.

Anything of actual substance to post? Any considered counter-argument?

No, of course not. It's you.

[stuno1]

MarshPhantom said:

It really is.

Agreed why done mods pick up on this sort of trolling.

[Disastrous]

Funkycoldribena said:

Disastrous said:

So creepy to be sitting at your PC imaging me in a swimsuit.

Anything of actual substance to post? Any considered counter-argument?

No, of course not. It's you.

I don't need to waffle endless crap like you.

And yet here you are...

Still picturing me in the swimsuit?

[Disastrous]

Whatever gets you off man. Picture me as big as you think you could manage.

You've gone pretty weird here so maybe sit the next couple of plays out, yeah?

I answered the question posed in the thread, you jumped in with yet another tedious dig that failed to work on any intelligent level and now you've gone 100% gay for me. You're a pretty odd guy.

[munky]

Why did you choose the word "love"? For most remainers it's a logical decision that weighs the pros against the cons, and finding that for them, the pros outweigh the cons.

If there's an emotional response from some, that still doesn't mean "love". It means that they begrudge certain existing rights likely being taken away by a slim majority that in their opinion are one or more of: insular and inward-looking, nationalistic/xenophobic, under-educated, rural & backward looking, or just old and grumpy. Or, that they consider themselves European before British. I know people that consider themselves to be European citizens, probably because they have lived and worked in continental Europe for many years, with children that are multi-lingual and more "worldly" than (most of) their peers at home who never leave these shores unless it's on a package holiday to Benidorm to eat fish & chips. At the other end of the scale, some people consider themselves to be (for example) Cornish before British. Would we all be better off if the UK was split into individual sovereign counties? I don't know of anyone that seriously thinks so, but some probably do.

For the logical thinkers, the pros and cons have been listed and well discussed already, I am sure. But you're not asking about them.

[///ajd]

SKP555 said:

There's loads of stuff about how stupid leave voters are.

Given your apparent ignorance of the benefits of unity and shared purpose in the EU - perhaps you should reflect on whether you are adding to the "problem" with your post?

VM makes a very elegant case that anyone who isn't a narrow minded insular moron should be able to relate to.

[rallycross]

I love the EU because :

We are leaving soon.

The common market was a good idea, let's all trade together with our near neighbours giving favourable terms.
Let's make cross border travel and employment easy and simple.

That's all good, but funding a Euro super state that none of us asked for that is run by an unelected bunch of career politicians, bailing out failed Euro economies, subsidising crappy little countries with little to offer - that's why we need to leave before it all goes tits up when Merkle loses the next election and Germany stops pouring unlimited money into Junkers failing dream.

[munky]

rallycross said:

I love the EU because :

We are leaving soon.

The common market was a good idea, let's all trade together with our near neighbours giving favourable terms.
Let's make cross border travel and employment easy and simple.

That's all good, but funding a Euro super state that none of us asked for that is run by an unelected bunch of career politicians, bailing out failed Euro economies, subsidising crappy little countries with little to offer - that's why we need to leave before it all goes tits up when Merkle loses the next election and Germany stops pouring unlimited money into Junkers failing dream.

I voted in the MEP elections. Didn't you? Your fault then. The other things you list are failures of a single currency (monetary union) without fiscal union, not failures of the EU. They are different things. Some would argue (not me, actually) that the answer to that is more integration, rather than less. Greece etc. over-borrowed because they could, at the low rates resulting from monetary union, and nobody could stop them because they still had control over borrowing. And then we could get into discussions about how it was as much Germany's fault by virtue of their persistent trade surplus and too-high levels of saving vs low spending & investment, and so on. Germany profited hugely with its under-priced Euros at Greece's expense. A floating exchange rate would've sorted that out.

Not being in the single currency, our contribution to the bailout was incredibly tiny, because we refused to pay more. Also, one region bailing out another is a feature of all sovereign states or federations, whether it be London subsidising Cornwall or New York subsidising Alabama or wherever.

As for "crappy little countries with little to offer", Greece invented democracy. As in the greek word, demokratia.

I agree though that the primary benefits are free movement of goods, capital and workers. If it had stopped there, and they hadn't expanded eastwards too quickly, all would've been fine because it was far more acceptable to people than what we ended up with.