I love the EU because...

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Discussion

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
I loved the EU because it was part of being in a greater whole than the UK alone.
Because it was an opportunity to travel and work without restriction in other cultures and languages.
Because it brought other cultures and languages to the UK.
Because the kind of people who travelled to the UK for work were, on the whole, positive contributors to the UK. Both financially and culturally.
Because it was a useful trading block and allowed unity of customs, laws and other stuff allowing free trade.
Because it made us less insular and turned some of the ghetto areas of our cities into interesting multicultural places that were safe to visit.
And so on.

crankedup

25,764 posts

242 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
battered said:
I loved the EU because it was part of being in a greater whole than the UK alone.
Because it was an opportunity to travel and work without restriction in other cultures and languages.
Because it brought other cultures and languages to the UK.
Because the kind of people who travelled to the UK for work were, on the whole, positive contributors to the UK. Both financially and culturally.
Because it was a useful trading block and allowed unity of customs, laws and other stuff allowing free trade.
Because it made us less insular and turned some of the ghetto areas of our cities into interesting multicultural places that were safe to visit.
And so on.
Yes but conversely :
Being only part of a greater whole can be disadvantageous. Loss of automony.
We can still travel, just means a visa for work, granted a bit of hassle.
Some differing cultures and languages are interesting, but belief in ones own identity and effort by immigrants to embrace our culture and language is important also.
Workers from other parts of the World will still be welcomed, but we will regain control of our borders.
The useful trading block came at a price, we believe we can still trade with the eu and other parts of the World.
The influx of too many low skilled and semi skilled workers has lowered our wage economy.
and so on.

dandarez

13,244 posts

282 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
battered said:
I loved the EU because it was part of being in a greater whole than the UK alone.
Because it was an opportunity to travel and work without restriction in other cultures and languages.
Because it brought other cultures and languages to the UK.
Because the kind of people who travelled to the UK for work were, on the whole, positive contributors to the UK. Both financially and culturally.
Because it was a useful trading block and allowed unity of customs, laws and other stuff allowing free trade.
Because it made us less insular and turned some of the ghetto areas of our cities into interesting multicultural places that were safe to visit.
And so on.
The first sentence is misleading in that it is utterly wrong.

I 'love' EUROPE because it 'is' part of (being in) a greater whole than the UK alone.

It is a continent of which we are part of, and always will be, as we can never leave it!

The EU is no more than a gravy train. Thankfully, we can leave it, and are.


Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
battered said:
I loved the EU because it was part of being in a greater whole than the UK alone..
Welcome to the brotherhood of man (not the group). There are over 200 countries out there. Loving just 27 others seems a little isolationist. A bit "Little EUer"?

battered said:
...
Because it was an opportunity to travel and work without restriction in other cultures and languages.
Because it brought other cultures and languages to the UK.
I have never been prevented from travelling anywhere I've wanted to go or work anywhere I've wanted to work. EU and non-EU. So the material difference is....?

As for other cultures coming here, I guess they never did before 1973/1975/1993?

Multi-culturalism has great benefits, but like anything if overplayed it also has big downsides. Care and control is needed. But the UK has history as one of the brightest examples of it that extends way beyond the last 44yrs.

battered said:
...
Because the kind of people who travelled to the UK for work were, on the whole, positive contributors to the UK. Both financially and culturally
There is no empirical evidence to support this. Only averages (which are not the same and only of limited use).

My exposure anecdotally matches your own. But I am not blind to the downsides. I'm just thankful that at present I'm not subject to them.

battered said:

Because it was a useful trading block and allowed unity of customs, laws and other stuff allowing free trade.
I tend to agree with this one. Just what we signed up for in 1973 and 1975. Cool (but even there the empirical benefits in absolute terms are difficult/impossible to quantify).

battered said:
...
Because it made us less insular and turned some of the ghetto areas of our cities into interesting multicultural places that were safe to visit.
And so on.

Because across our 1,000 year history we have been known as being very insular and not exploring what the world has to offer. We also have a track record more recently, say the last 100yrs of not helping our neighbours....hmmmmmmmm.

Do you have examples of some of our ghettos that were EU-ified totally on the EU's ticket? Even if there were "ghettos", remember that only in one year of our 44yr membership have we been net recipients (ironically or not 1975).So technically any monetary input was not the EU's.

So one reasonably nailed on good example. It's a start (44yrs in).

Jockman

17,912 posts

159 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
There are over 200 countries out there....

You sure, mate?

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Jockman said:
Murph7355 said:
There are over 200 countries out there....

You sure, mate?
Give or take. By a selective use of the word "country". smile

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
SKP555 said:
Not trolling and not drinking.


I can appreciate the desire for world government and also the acknowledgement that it isn't currently feasible. .
Why would you want it? Concentration of power tends to be a bad thing.

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
To everyone who wants to shoot down my opinion and tell me I am wrong - the question was "what do you like?" As a result there vcan be no rights and wrongs. You can't tell me I am wrong for liking/loving something. It just is. Your opinion will not change mine, any more than my view has changed yours.

As for "no evidence of positive contribution", yes there is. Ask the ONS. Tell them they are wrong.

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
dandarez said:
battered said:
I loved the EU because it was part of being in a greater whole than the UK alone.
Because it was an opportunity to travel and work without restriction in other cultures and languages.
Because it brought other cultures and languages to the UK.
Because the kind of people who travelled to the UK for work were, on the whole, positive contributors to the UK. Both financially and culturally.
Because it was a useful trading block and allowed unity of customs, laws and other stuff allowing free trade.
Because it made us less insular and turned some of the ghetto areas of our cities into interesting multicultural places that were safe to visit.
And so on.
The first sentence is misleading in that it is utterly wrong.

I 'love' EUROPE because it 'is' part of (being in) a greater whole than the UK alone.
Read the question. It's on the top line of Page 1. The question is "I love the EU because". Not Europe. You're the one answering the wrong question. The EU *is* a greater unit than the UK alone. Why do you think the Japanese car makers are here? It's not for the weather.

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
battered said:
Read the question. It's on the top line of Page 1. The question is "I love the EU because". Not Europe. You're the one answering the wrong question. The EU *is* a greater unit than the UK alone. Why do you think the Japanese car makers are here? It's not for the weather.
Thatcher decided to subsidise them coming as a result of the loss of other industry in the areas concerned.

The workforce subsequently affirmed that by ensuring these plants were the most efficient in the world making moving them non-sensicsal.

Is that along the right lines?

SKP555

Original Poster:

1,114 posts

125 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
SKP555 said:
Not trolling and not drinking.


I can appreciate the desire for world government and also the acknowledgement that it isn't currently feasible. .
Why would you want it? Concentration of power tends to be a bad thing.
I definitely don't want it. I can appreciate why some people believe in it as a noble goal, and at a stretch why some people believe the EU is a worthwhile step towards it. Though I disagree with both.

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Accurate enough to date, but you missed the fact that they can trade tariff-free across the whole of the EU if they were made within it. Otherwise why would they bother making them outside Japan?

We all know that the CEOs of Nissan & Toyota UK have been talking to the PM about Brexit. I don't think it was just for the tea and biscuits.

Murph7355

37,646 posts

255 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
battered said:
Accurate enough to date, but you missed the fact that they can trade tariff-free across the whole of the EU if they were made within it. Otherwise why would they bother making them outside Japan?

We all know that the CEOs of Nissan & Toyota UK have been talking to the PM about Brexit. I don't think it was just for the tea and biscuits.
A guarantee of tariff free access evidently isn't the be all and end all and wasn't the key determinant.

They have been offered no special deal unless someone can prove they have. Every part of the MSM was all over the Nissan thing. If there was dirt to find, it would have been found. Ghosn wouldn't have been able to keep his mouth shut for a start, having had his bluff called a few times. And why would the govt offer anything other than generic assurances before negotiations actually start?

Ref the ONS, please show me the proof that any net benefits of EU membership would not have been outdone had we remained outside.

You cannot, as statistically the data simply does not exist. There were plenty of people who tried during campaigning. Most of them have been proven wrong thus far and there's no real sign of that abating yet.

You are entitled to your opinions. Ruling out having those opinions swayed is the definition of bigoted. The logic in your "likes' is weak at best. But if you're cool with it, that's fair enough I guess. Just a shame you cannot be more open minded smile

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
A guarantee of tariff free access evidently isn't the be all and end all and wasn't the key determinant.

They have been offered no special deal unless someone can prove they have. Every part of the MSM was all over the Nissan thing. If there was dirt to find, it would have been found. Ghosn wouldn't have been able to keep his mouth shut for a start, having had his bluff called a few times. And why would the govt offer anything other than generic assurances before negotiations actually start?

Ref the ONS, please show me the proof that any net benefits of EU membership would not have been outdone had we remained outside.

You cannot, as statistically the data simply does not exist. There were plenty of people who tried during campaigning. Most of them have been proven wrong thus far and there's no real sign of that abating yet.

You are entitled to your opinions. Ruling out having those opinions swayed is the definition of bigoted. The logic in your "likes' is weak at best. But if you're cool with it, that's fair enough I guess. Just a shame you cannot be more open minded smile
Me not open minded. Very funny. Of course your opinions, regularly aired on here, are always subject to change.

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
You are entitled to your opinions. Ruling out having those opinions swayed is the definition of bigoted.
No it's not. Is this really the best you can do, with the whole of the internet and all its online dictionaries at your disposal? Try here:

"obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices." (Cambridge online dic)
-I'm not unreasonably attached to my opinion, I simply hold it as you do yours. I have first hand experience that supports my opinion, just as you believe you do.
- I'm not intolerant of your views, beliefs or practices. I just disagree.

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
A guarantee of tariff free access evidently isn't the be all and end all and wasn't the key determinant.

They have been offered no special deal unless someone can prove they have. Every part of the MSM was all over the Nissan thing. If there was dirt to find, it would have been found. Ghosn wouldn't have been able to keep his mouth shut for a start, having had his bluff called a few times. And why would the govt offer anything other than generic assurances before negotiations actually start?

Ref the ONS, please show me the proof that any net benefits of EU membership would not have been outdone had we remained outside.

You cannot, as statistically the data simply does not exist. There were plenty of people who tried during campaigning. Most of them have been proven wrong thus far and there's no real sign of that abating yet.

You are entitled to your opinions. Ruling out having those opinions swayed is the definition of bigoted. The logic in your "likes' is weak at best. But if you're cool with it, that's fair enough I guess. Just a shame you cannot be more open minded smile
'Ghosn wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut...'

Do you actually believe that? That someone as demonstrably as capable as Ghosn 'wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut?'

You have no idea if they have been offered a special deal. Can you prove it that they haven't?

The whole post is rather bizarre, to put it mildly.


battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Ref the ONS, please show me the proof that any net benefits of EU membership would not have been outdone had we remained outside.

You cannot, as statistically the data simply does not exist. There were plenty of people who tried during campaigning. Most of them have been proven wrong thus far and there's no real sign of that abating yet.
Nobody can prove a negative. None of us have a crystal ball or a parallel universe to try out alternative scenarios.
What has been proven by the ONS is that the EU migrants to UK have on the whole contributed more money in taxes etc than they have cost.

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
battered said:
....
What has been proven by the ONS is that the EU migrants to UK have on the whole contributed more money in taxes etc than they have cost.
We've been through that rabbit hole so many times. The stock answer is 'ah yes, but that's on average, what about every single immigrant, what about low skilled ones'. Less and less fun with every iteration.

battered

4,088 posts

146 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
Exactly so. I know a bloke who came here with a wife and 5 kids, never done a stroke of work, been given a 6 bedroom home in Hampstead, all bills paid, £30k a year on benefits, a Porsche and a free shag with the best looking member of the Cabinet once a week. They're all at it.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Thursday 30th March 2017
quotequote all
SKP555 said:
I definitely don't want it. I can appreciate why some people believe in it as a noble goal, and at a stretch why some people believe the EU is a worthwhile step towards it. Though I disagree with both.
I can't. The concept is about as anti-freedom as it is possible to get.