I love the EU because...

[jjlynn27]

crankedup said:

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

Have you been directly affected, or a family member affected? Very likely not otherwise your post may well be of a very different tone.
Walk onto a building site and note just how many of the builders are from eu countries. They are prepared to work hard for less money, therefore the indigenous worker is either displaced or must accept that lower wage.

So what if they 'must accept lower wage'? What about call centre workers who are competing with people in India, South Africa and so on. What about people who 'must accept lower wage' through advances in technology?

Try to think about it, lower wages whilst inflation takes off, housing becomes ever more expensive, less money in more people's pockets as disposable income. All this, and your own examples are leading to a low wage economy, good for big employers perhaps in the short term.
Competing with other Countries has always been part of the downside of a globalised market place. Agree that tech' is a threat to many jobs and is an unstoppable force, however, I do not agree that importing. heap labour that drives wages down is helpful to the indigenous worker.
If I had the answer to solve all the ills you mention I would be a billionaire. By your attitude it's one suffer all suffer, I can't agree with that.
Our saviour to a certain extent is the high quality of our production, our high tech' centres, sciences and pharmaceuticals. We need to expand our manufacturing base urgently though.

What do you think will happen to prices if you pay more for labour? What effect do you think that'll have on inflation?

My argument is the effect that unskillled and semi skilled worker immigrants have had on the wage economy of the UK. Indigenous workers still have to pay a mortgage or rent, they do not generally live twenty people to a three bed house and share this burden equally. Also the bills of living have to be paid.
So far as inflation is concerned, some inflation is a good thing in so much it reduces the effect of debt, as in National and private. Of course inflation has to be controlled and this is the job for the BOE in conjunction with the Government. Wage inflation is a given, or used to be, it is an incentive to go to work and stay at work, but must be controlled. The mathematics on the grand scale are above my pay grade tbh.

AT the point where you start talking about twenty people per property, I'll bow out of the discussion as it is pointless.
The whole controlling immigration to safeguard jobs is last century solution to today's issues. Technology will prevent that 'solution' from working.

[SKP555]

battered said:

Sure. 2 easy ones.
1. Raising tax rates should raise tax revenue. However it generally doesn't. (Monetarism, Chapter 1, page 1, pretty well)
2. Borrowing money that you don't have sounds like a bad idea but it can increase growth. (read Keynes for this)
3. If you stop giving £300M a week to the EU you don't get the £300M to spend, because the overall situation has now changed. None of this is zero-sum. (This one's one of mine, borne out by a comment made on the Andrew Marr show. The EU balance sheet doesn't work like the contents of my wallet).
So it goes on. There;s a reason why you can do both first degrees and higher degrees in economics - it's bloody hugely complex. European macroeconomics across the whole continent is staggeringly so. Anyone saying otherwise is either naive, stupid or being obtuse to make a point. Anyone using market stall analogies to analyse continental macroeconomics should stop now and do something simpler, like analyse the whole of fluid dynamics by pouring water out of a jug. It's only water. It's not complicated.

I do have a degree in econimics with a focus on macro and while you're right to an extent you're also putting too much faith in the merits of economics degrees.

You can make it as complex as you like trying to quantify the costs and benefits of EU membership as compared to various alternative models but you can never hope to get an accurate answer or even test whether the answers you do have are in fact accurate. It's an advanced guessing game with endless shaky assumptions.

Our contribution is known and it's up to the people who make the decision whether or not they feel it's value for money. The government passed that decision to the public and the public said no.

The poll of economists saying they thought it would negatively impact GDP didn't represent years of diligent highly advanced research into the costs and benefits of EU membership, it represented a straw poll of economists asked a fairly strange question with a totally unknown alternative scenario and got a fairly reserved answer from a small number of them.

[crankedup]

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

Have you been directly affected, or a family member affected? Very likely not otherwise your post may well be of a very different tone.
Walk onto a building site and note just how many of the builders are from eu countries. They are prepared to work hard for less money, therefore the indigenous worker is either displaced or must accept that lower wage.

So what if they 'must accept lower wage'? What about call centre workers who are competing with people in India, South Africa and so on. What about people who 'must accept lower wage' through advances in technology?

Try to think about it, lower wages whilst inflation takes off, housing becomes ever more expensive, less money in more people's pockets as disposable income. All this, and your own examples are leading to a low wage economy, good for big employers perhaps in the short term.
Competing with other Countries has always been part of the downside of a globalised market place. Agree that tech' is a threat to many jobs and is an unstoppable force, however, I do not agree that importing. heap labour that drives wages down is helpful to the indigenous worker.
If I had the answer to solve all the ills you mention I would be a billionaire. By your attitude it's one suffer all suffer, I can't agree with that.
Our saviour to a certain extent is the high quality of our production, our high tech' centres, sciences and pharmaceuticals. We need to expand our manufacturing base urgently though.

What do you think will happen to prices if you pay more for labour? What effect do you think that'll have on inflation?

My argument is the effect that unskillled and semi skilled worker immigrants have had on the wage economy of the UK. Indigenous workers still have to pay a mortgage or rent, they do not generally live twenty people to a three bed house and share this burden equally. Also the bills of living have to be paid.
So far as inflation is concerned, some inflation is a good thing in so much it reduces the effect of debt, as in National and private. Of course inflation has to be controlled and this is the job for the BOE in conjunction with the Government. Wage inflation is a given, or used to be, it is an incentive to go to work and stay at work, but must be controlled. The mathematics on the grand scale are above my pay grade tbh.

AT the point where you start talking about twenty people per property, I'll bow out of the discussion as it is pointless.
The whole controlling immigration to safeguard jobs is last century solution to today's issues. Technology will prevent that 'solution' from working.

Obviously you need to get yourself into Lincolnshire, Peterborough and each year these areas broaden out.
I can assure you that multiple occupation has been well established for at least two decades. If you cannot accept that as fact I suggest you get yourself across to have a look around.

Can you explain your assertion within your last paragraph., controlling immigration is not only about 'safeguarding jobs' and by the way I don't agree that statement. The bigger picture is the issue, continued influx of very low paid workers from abroad is lowering our wage economy, this is detrimental to our indigenous workforce.

[battered]

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

[jjlynn27]

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

You are saying that those workers can actually afford a place on their own? But, Express says that they are living 30 to a
room?

(Fwiw, my experience is same as yours, my neighbours are Portuguese, they don't earn all that much but they have a house with a mortgage.)

[crankedup]

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

I can only invite you to visit the cabbage patch areas, take jellybean. Alternatively try and catch BBC East news, some back stories highlighting the 'hotbedding'. You can call out as much as you wish.
Ever heard of gangmasters? No, thought not.

[crankedup]

jjlynn27 said:

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

You are saying that those workers can actually afford a place on their own? But, Express says that they are living 30 to a
room?

(Fwiw, my experience is same as yours, my neighbours are Portuguese, they don't earn all that much but they have a house with a mortgage.)

Good for them, and I am sure many Europeans have arrived here to work and have done well. Well enough to take on a mortgage, no arguing from me on that one.

[crankedup]

still waiting for some questions to be answered and explanations made jellybean.

[otherman]

battered said:

2. Borrowing money that you don't have sounds like a bad idea but it can increase growth. (read Keynes for this)

It can, but only if you spend in growth induding projects, like new infrastructure that increases trade. If you spend it on revenue, it's just gone, and leaves additional debt for later generations to pay, with no funds to pay it with.

[wc98]

jjlynn27 said:

AT the point where you start talking about twenty people per property, I'll bow out of the discussion as it is pointless.

what about 9 or 10 ?
"It’s usual to see nine people in a three-bedroom home. We’ve had 10 people in a two-bedroom home."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/08/wi...

[wc98]

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

i smile when i hear people like you and jj these days. you are either deluded or have your head so far up your own arses you cannot see the light. i have every confidence that neither of you will ever see the bottom end of the labour market in the uk for what it really is. by the time it gets to where it is going it will be to late to change,and along the way more and more of the indigenous left behind are learning lessons from those exploiting the hell out of that end of the labour market.

if you actually want to learn a bit more have a read of this ,from a much derided source on here . they do however do investigative journalism fairly well, imo. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/ga...

i wonder how much that lot cost to prosecute ?

the bottom line for me is i want people coming here to better themselves and their families to arrive in a better country. i don't want them to be used as pawns in a race to the bottom ,or face exploitation as bad , or worse, than they would have faced in the country they left.

the people in the report above must be left wondering why the hell they ever thought coming to the uk was ever a good idea. that story will be playing out in towns and cities up and down the country as we speak .ignoring these problems isn't going to be of any comfort to those they affect.

[danllama]

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

I live in East London and have quite a few Eastern European friends, especially Romanian and Poles. I've met many of them living in large groups in houses, sometimes 2-3 in a room. It's quote surprising the first time you see it, but it happens more than you seem to think. Take a walk through East Ham if you want custard.

[crankedup]

Oh look battered and jellybean have suddenly gone and disappeared. The shallow closed minds of some beggars belief at times.

Thanks for posting the links, although old news it is still relevant today, sadly.

[Rich_W]

wc98 said:

must be left wondering why the hell they ever thought coming to the uk was ever a good idea.

Not related to the case above, but it made me think.

My noisy neighbour above me is a Latvian (Who I wish was forcibly removed from this country and take his ugly fat, equally y, Colombian wife with him! But that's nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with their anti social ways, contempt for the British! He's a bell end and made an official complaint to Lidl because their store wasn't arranged properly! )

But I digress

He works 5 days a week at a basic (what I believe to be) minimum or just above wage job. He's not educated to a high level. He is your archetypal low skill low IQ immigrant. His wife doesn't work (or seemingly EVER leave the flat without husband - seems controlling imo) They have a toddler. (who seems to spend an inordinate amount of time "falling over" But whenever I see them they are wearing the same few sets of clothes. He doesn't own a car, he has one of those stty worthless Chinese copies of a Honda to commute on. With the obligatory cheapo helmet made my a company I've never heard of! Their rent is a grand a month (well was when the place was advertised, possibly increased since then)


Lativa's average wage is roughly a third of ours, but lets assume living costs are also proportionally smaller. He's probably living just at or just outside his means I would guess, so I daresay he's not saving for his retirement back in Lativia. As a result I imagine he's not sending home wedges of cash to family members. Maybe he's doing college to learn a trade, but who knows. I cant imagine he is, given his attitude generally.

Ive just looked around Riga on Google. It looks like modern Russia. (inevitably) I saw normal cars. Modern buildings
https://goo.gl/maps/xcqvopBXEK42

I can't understand why you would swap one country for low wages for a much more expensive country with low wages. Since the cost of living here is proportionally higher percentage of your monthly wages. I guess the lure of the bright lights is too much if you're a thick fk with no brain or plan.

Conversely, a roughly the same age, Macedonian guy I work with (who is fully integrated and a good guy to have around) is in a supervisorial role. Is multilingual. Drives a brand new 17 plate car! (albeit on a scheme) Dresses well and has a decent social life that he could never have got back home. So that makes complete sense to me. He's improved his lot. It's the same with the couple of Polish managers we have, both improved their lives by moving here (One now sounds fully "London" You'd never know he was Polish unless you saw his surname written down )

[s2art]

Rich_W said:

I can't understand why you would swap one country for low wages for a much more expensive country with low wages. Since the cost of living here is proportionally higher percentage of your monthly wages. I guess the lure of the bright lights is too much if you're a thick fk with no brain or plan.

How good is socialised medical care and education in Latvia?

[battered]

crankedup said:

Oh look battered and jellybean have suddenly gone and disappeared. The shallow closed minds of some beggars belief at times.

Thanks for posting the links, although old news it is still relevant today, sadly.

Still here, funny man. Some of us have a life and don't spend all dayb on here. As for shallow closed minds,vyou should look in a mirror.

[battered]

crankedup said:

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

I can only invite you to visit the cabbage patch areas, take jellybean. Alternatively try and catch BBC East news, some back stories highlighting the 'hotbedding'. You can call out as much as you wish.
Ever heard of gangmasters? No, thought not.

I have been to the cabbage patch areas, I work there at times in the factories. Have I heard of gang masters? Of course, and dealt with them via the GLA. You thought not? Well, you thought wrong, why am I not surprised?

Some illegal gang masters break the law. This isn't news. Some unscrupulous landlords do too. We know. In the linked cases the police and EHOs are involved, which tells you how normal it is. This has been going on for years, with indigenous and immigrant populations alike. It has nothing to do with immigrants, it's just unscrupulous people exploiting the weak. So yes, it goes on, and it shouldn't. However it's not the norm. Immigrants do not 'generally live 20 to a 3bed house' as suggested earlier.
The fact that the Guardian has found some unfortunates that do does not make custard, sorry.

I've just finished a contract in SE London, a big factory full of people from all over. They aren't illegally employed, they are paid min wage or better, and they generally live in small flats in Thamesmead or similar. Not a great life but not 7 to a room. Equally further north it's a similar picture, my ex neighbours now live in Wakefield with a mortgage and a dog.

[jjlynn27]

wc98 said:

i smile when i hear people like you and jj these days. you are either deluded or have your head so far up your own arses you cannot see the light. i have every confidence that neither of you will ever see the bottom end of the labour market in the uk for what it really is. by the time it gets to where it is going it will be to late to change,and along the way more and more of the indigenous left behind are learning lessons from those exploiting the hell out of that end of the labour market.

Luckily we have you, to show us the way, the light, the error of our ways.

wc98 said:

if you actually want to learn a bit more have a read of this ,from a much derided source on here . they do however do investigative journalism fairly well, imo. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/ga...

i wonder how much that lot cost to prosecute ?

the bottom line for me is i want people coming here to better themselves and their families to arrive in a better country. i don't want them to be used as pawns in a race to the bottom ,or face exploitation as bad , or worse, than they would have faced in the country they left.

Of course you do. You are really, really, really worried about well-being of them foreigners.

wc98 said:

the people in the report above must be left wondering why the hell they ever thought coming to the uk was ever a good idea. that story will be playing out in towns and cities up and down the country as we speak .ignoring these problems isn't going to be of any comfort to those they affect.

A lot of people are affected by a lot of problems. As per that article, the services seem to do a good job and repatriate people who ask for help. This idiotic notion that all immigrants work for minimum wage and live in squalid conditions is laughable. Given that I wasn't born here, I'd bet that I know more immigrants than you do. None of them live '10 or 20 to a house'.

[crankedup]

battered said:

crankedup said:

Oh look battered and jellybean have suddenly gone and disappeared. The shallow closed minds of some beggars belief at times.

Thanks for posting the links, although old news it is still relevant today, sadly.

Still here, funny man. Some of us have a life and don't spend all dayb on here. As for shallow closed minds,vyou should look in a mirror.

Fair play, I just wanted to stimulate a response and judging by your next post it has worked. It's an old tactic I know, but still has its uses.

[crankedup]

battered said:

crankedup said:

battered said:

I work in food d factories that employ EU immigrants, in places such as you mention. I have never met anyone living 20 to a house. Most of them have their own place. House shares typically involve 2 or 3 people. To suggest that large numbers of E European workers are living in grossly overcrowded houses such as you describe is unfounded. I call custard.

I can only invite you to visit the cabbage patch areas, take jellybean. Alternatively try and catch BBC East news, some back stories highlighting the 'hotbedding'. You can call out as much as you wish.
Ever heard of gangmasters? No, thought not.

I have been to the cabbage patch areas, I work there at times in the factories. Have I heard of gang masters? Of course, and dealt with them via the GLA. You thought not? Well, you thought wrong, why am I not surprised?

Some illegal gang masters break the law. This isn't news. Some unscrupulous landlords do too. We know. In the linked cases the police and EHOs are involved, which tells you how normal it is. This has been going on for years, with indigenous and immigrant populations alike. It has nothing to do with immigrants, it's just unscrupulous people exploiting the weak. So yes, it goes on, and it shouldn't. However it's not the norm. Immigrants do not 'generally live 20 to a 3bed house' as suggested earlier.
The fact that the Guardian has found some unfortunates that do does not make custard, sorry.

I've just finished a contract in SE London, a big factory full of people from all over. They aren't illegally employed, they are paid min wage or better, and they generally live in small flats in Thamesmead or similar. Not a great life but not 7 to a room. Equally further north it's a similar picture, my ex neighbours now live in Wakefield with a mortgage and a dog.

Good response! although you now acknowledge that some immigrants are living like sardines in a house you now attempt to diminish the problem. Your 'Worldly' experiences at least have offered some insight and you even mention 'not a great life', progress.
I don't need you to advise me of the involvement with authorities involved with the gangmasters and how they slave trade, honestly, I don't.
Getting back to my original point, immigrants entering the UK in such numbers that the effect is a reduction in pay for many indigenous workers. Obviously you, nor any of your friends or family have been affected. Visit building sites, visit food s production, oh you work in one, visit
fruit and vegetable farms, want your car washed? visit supermarkets, visit retail and the list goes on and on. All working at the minimum. wage if they are lucky. The only way they can survive is by handouts via out taxes. Most could not possibly live on the wages without our taxes being handed out to them, in effect we subsidise the companies that employ these people.
I'm not saying immigrants are not earning thier money, what I am saying is that as a result of thier working here in such numbers it has suppressed our wage economy to the detriment of the indigenous worker.

ps I am entitled to spend as much time on my tablet as I wish, having worked all my life and earnt my living. I now enjoy my retirement, so I guess I must be one of the 'oldies' who have stolen the lives of the generation behind!

Edited by crankedup on Friday 7th April 10:11