I love the EU because...

[battered]

crankedup said:

Good response! although you now acknowledge that some immigrants are living like sardines in a house you now attempt to diminish the problem. Your 'Worldly' experiences at least have offered some insight and you even mention 'not a great life', progress.

Progress indeed, we have gone from your "generally living 20 to a house" to "some people on min wage have to live in small flats in dodgy areas". Well, who knew? We can't all afford 4 bed houses in the country, the poor of our society never could and never will. I've spent enough time living in poky places in grubby bits of time to know, and I appreciate the fact that I can, after 30 years in work, now have a nice house in a nice area.

crankedup said:

Getting back to my original point, immigrants entering the UK in such numbers that the effect is a reduction in pay for many indigenous workers. Obviously you, nor any of your friends or family have been affected.
I'm not saying immigrants are not earning thier money, what I am saying is that as a result of thier working here in such numbers it has suppressed our wage economy to the detriment of the indigenous worker.

We have seen a decline in the number of painters and decorators able to charge £3-400 a day, it's true.
I can't shed too many tears for them. I'm self employed too, my rates go up and down according to supply and demand. This has been happening with and without the assistance of immigrants since the dawn of time. A mate who had a very nice living working as a contractor within the NHS has seen his rates capped and slashed to the point hwere he has thrown in his hand and taken on a PAYE. Nothing to do with immigrants, everything to do with market rates shifting. He's not exactly starving. People move for work, remember? Always have, always will. Why do you think I went to London for 5 months, Essex and the West Midlands before that, Scotland before that? Because it paid, and well. If it didn't I would get a job at the end of the street. You are suggesting that extensive immigration has depressed pay rates across the whole of the lower paid market. It hasn't. Within my own lifetime I remember earning £1 an hour as a casual agri labourer aged 16. Put that in the inflation calculator, that's £3.10 today. Min wage now for under 18s is £4.05. In 1986 as a student I had some factory work at £2 an hour. The going rate at the time, now worth £5.40. Min wage for the age I was then is now £5.60. So where is the depression of low wages?

If you are now retired you will remember the 60s and 70s. Back then it was the Irish taking our jobs. Seem familiar?

[alfie2244]

battered said:

"A mate who had a very nice living working as a contractor within the NHS has seen his rates capped and slashed to the point hwere he has thrown in his hand and taken on a PAYE. Nothing to do with immigrants, everything to do with market rates shifting"

This is disingenuous and has nothing to do with market rates shifting either............more likely your mate was "using" a tax / NI system that was designed for genuine contractors and was being abused by hidden employees that should have been PAYE all along and ow being caught by the changes in IR35.......lets hope he doesn't get a retrospective inspection.

[battered]

More likely you are wrong. He was doing short term work here and there in various hospitals and trusts that didn't need his skills full time.

[alfie2244]

battered said:

More likely you are wrong. He was doing short term work here and there in various hospitals and trusts that didn't need his skills full time.

Which doesn't necessarily automatically mean he was a legitimate contractor.

What does he do?

[battered]

Health and safety, both within the hospital environment and out at remote sites or in ambulances/fire/emergency vehicles. Particularly fond of bking contractors while they are knocking lumps out of old buildings, building new bits and doing their best to cut as many safety corners as possible.

[WinstonWolf]

jjlynn27 said:

wc98 said:

i smile when i hear people like you and jj these days. you are either deluded or have your head so far up your own arses you cannot see the light. i have every confidence that neither of you will ever see the bottom end of the labour market in the uk for what it really is. by the time it gets to where it is going it will be to late to change,and along the way more and more of the indigenous left behind are learning lessons from those exploiting the hell out of that end of the labour market.

Luckily we have you, to show us the way, the light, the error of our ways.

wc98 said:

if you actually want to learn a bit more have a read of this ,from a much derided source on here . they do however do investigative journalism fairly well, imo. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/ga...

i wonder how much that lot cost to prosecute ?

the bottom line for me is i want people coming here to better themselves and their families to arrive in a better country. i don't want them to be used as pawns in a race to the bottom ,or face exploitation as bad , or worse, than they would have faced in the country they left.

Of course you do. You are really, really, really worried about well-being of them foreigners.

wc98 said:

the people in the report above must be left wondering why the hell they ever thought coming to the uk was ever a good idea. that story will be playing out in towns and cities up and down the country as we speak .ignoring these problems isn't going to be of any comfort to those they affect.

A lot of people are affected by a lot of problems. As per that article, the services seem to do a good job and repatriate people who ask for help. This idiotic notion that all immigrants work for minimum wage and live in squalid conditions is laughable. Given that I wasn't born here, I'd bet that I know more immigrants than you do. None of them live '10 or 20 to a house'.

There were ten living in the house next door to my O/H for about a year, it's very common in the fens.

[alfie2244]

battered said:

Health and safety, both within the hospital environment and out at remote sites or in ambulances/fire/emergency vehicles. Particularly fond of bking contractors while they are knocking lumps out of old buildings, building new bits and doing their best to cut as many safety corners as possible.

So what you are saying is he was a legit public sector contractor and he only did interim work as his skills were only required now and again. But now simply due to rate caps he has moved into a permanent position and shut his contracting company down and you are 100% certain this has absolutely nothing to do with the recent IR35 public sector changes....hence your using him on a car forum thread about the EU as an example of market rates changing / supply & demand.

As I said before.........lets hope you mate doesn't have a retrospective HMRC investigation,.

Edited by alfie2244 on Friday 7th April 13:52

[wc98]

jjlynn27 said:

wc98 said:

i smile when i hear people like you and jj these days. you are either deluded or have your head so far up your own arses you cannot see the light. i have every confidence that neither of you will ever see the bottom end of the labour market in the uk for what it really is. by the time it gets to where it is going it will be to late to change,and along the way more and more of the indigenous left behind are learning lessons from those exploiting the hell out of that end of the labour market.

Luckily we have you, to show us the way, the light, the error of our ways.

wc98 said:

if you actually want to learn a bit more have a read of this ,from a much derided source on here . they do however do investigative journalism fairly well, imo. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/ga...

i wonder how much that lot cost to prosecute ?

the bottom line for me is i want people coming here to better themselves and their families to arrive in a better country. i don't want them to be used as pawns in a race to the bottom ,or face exploitation as bad , or worse, than they would have faced in the country they left.

Of course you do. You are really, really, really worried about well-being of them foreigners.

wc98 said:

the people in the report above must be left wondering why the hell they ever thought coming to the uk was ever a good idea. that story will be playing out in towns and cities up and down the country as we speak .ignoring these problems isn't going to be of any comfort to those they affect.

A lot of people are affected by a lot of problems. As per that article, the services seem to do a good job and repatriate people who ask for help. This idiotic notion that all immigrants work for minimum wage and live in squalid conditions is laughable. Given that I wasn't born here, I'd bet that I know more immigrants than you do. None of them live '10 or 20 to a house'.

i have also been an immigrant, lived abroad, worked abroad ,have an immigrant step mother, mixed race siblings,youngest daughters best mate is polish,asian neighbours ,very close friends from the Pakistani and indian communities etc ,so i think we can safely say we both have experience of immigration and immigrants.

the issues i highlighted were known to the authorities and easy enough for the guardian to get details on. there are a lot worse things than this going on in relation to these people being exploited than in that report. you believe what you like about my opinion, but as i already said, i do not want people coming here being exploited, either by other immigrants or our own dregs.

when people turn a blind eye to it we end up with situations like the morecambe bay cockle pickers found themselves in. where you get "all immigrants work for minimum wage and live in squalid conditions" from in my post i have no idea, so i would appreciate it if you would stop attributing crap like that to me.

no showing the way or light from me, just a suggestion to remove your head from your arse and see a bit further than your immediate situation, believe it or not there is a world beyond that.

[battered]

alfie2244 said:

So what you are saying is he was a legit public sector contractor and he only did interim work as his skills were only required now and again. But now simply due to rate caps he has moved into a permanent position and shut his contracting company down and you are 100% certain this has absolutely nothing to do with the recent IR35 public sector changes.]

Yes, funnily enough that's what I said from the off.

[alfie2244]

"He was doing short term work here and there in various hospitals and trusts that didn't need his skills full time."

So now he has found a Trust / hospital that does need his skills full time or is he now a part time employee working for a considerably lesser wage on PAYE and NI?

Either way it will be a big shock when he realises he can't do what he wants to do when he wants to do it as he could when being a legitimate contractor with almost complete autonomy over his working practices.

Sorry but I find this whole scenario a bit strange and do not agree with the way you are trying to use it as some sort of proof to make a point....But I will not labour the point any further....other than to add this

NHS deems its entire PSC workforce inside IR35

http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012959nhs_deems_...

Edited by alfie2244 on Friday 7th April 14:52

[crankedup]

battered said:

crankedup said:

Good response! although you now acknowledge that some immigrants are living like sardines in a house you now attempt to diminish the problem. Your 'Worldly' experiences at least have offered some insight and you even mention 'not a great life', progress.

Progress indeed, we have gone from your "generally living 20 to a house" to "some people on min wage have to live in small flats in dodgy areas". Well, who knew? We can't all afford 4 bed houses in the country, the poor of our society never could and never will. I've spent enough time living in poky places in grubby bits of time to know, and I appreciate the fact that I can, after 30 years in work, now have a nice house in a nice area.

crankedup said:

Getting back to my original point, immigrants entering the UK in such numbers that the effect is a reduction in pay for many indigenous workers. Obviously you, nor any of your friends or family have been affected.
I'm not saying immigrants are not earning thier money, what I am saying is that as a result of thier working here in such numbers it has suppressed our wage economy to the detriment of the indigenous worker.

We have seen a decline in the number of painters and decorators able to charge £3-400 a day, it's true.
I can't shed too many tears for them. I'm self employed too, my rates go up and down according to supply and demand. This has been happening with and without the assistance of immigrants since the dawn of time. A mate who had a very nice living working as a contractor within the NHS has seen his rates capped and slashed to the point hwere he has thrown in his hand and taken on a PAYE. Nothing to do with immigrants, everything to do with market rates shifting. He's not exactly starving. People move for work, remember? Always have, always will. Why do you think I went to London for 5 months, Essex and the West Midlands before that, Scotland before that? Because it paid, and well. If it didn't I would get a job at the end of the street. You are suggesting that extensive immigration has depressed pay rates across the whole of the lower paid market. It hasn't. Within my own lifetime I remember earning £1 an hour as a casual agri labourer aged 16. Put that in the inflation calculator, that's £3.10 today. Min wage now for under 18s is £4.05. In 1986 as a student I had some factory work at £2 an hour. The going rate at the time, now worth £5.40. Min wage for the age I was then is now £5.60. So where is the depression of low wages?

If you are now retired you will remember the 60s and 70s. Back then it was the Irish taking our jobs. Seem familiar?

f
I have thrown in a compromise because we are never going to agree the basics.

Ok, trade rates fluctuate, but I am talking about a long term shift pattern down regarding pay rates for many trades. Our lad was a qualified sparky, he has seen his rate come under severe pressure. £200 day rate dropped to around £120 or not get the work. He jacked it in and took on a much better higher paid job.

You do know that the Polish workers are disgruntled, apparently the Romanians are undercutting thier pay rate! You mention the minimum pay rate, if it hadn't been the pressure on pay rates from unskilled workers flooding our job market that minimum wage would be much higher now.
You are telling me the pay rates at the lower end of the job market are not suppressed! I invite you to talk to those workers who have not seen a pay increase in 8 years or so. Employers get away with this thanks to an oversupply of workers, I am talking the big companies, the ones that employ thousands of workers and treat them all like st.

Your analogy with Ireland is not at all representative with the current situation. The Irish were what were termed as navies or bottom end labour on building sites and other infrastructure such as roads building. Very welcome too as the UK were rebuilding following the war years.

Looking at the NHS, wage pressure has come from Government financial cutbacks, it couldn't function without immigrants, many of high calibre doctors, nurses as well as ancillary staff.

However, the Country simply cannot sustain the level of immigration the Government has allowed (under eu laws) and for this reason many Brexiteers, myself included , have had enough. like I said at the outset of the discussion, if UK workers had options to enrich their lives in many eu Countries I am sure they would take it. The fact is immigrants see the UK as a land of plenty, which it is, but we have run out of room.

[jjlynn27]

crankedup said:

f
I have thrown in a compromise because we are never going to agree the basics.

Ok, trade rates fluctuate, but I am talking about a long term shift pattern down regarding pay rates for many trades. Our lad was a qualified sparky, he has seen his rate come under severe pressure. £200 day rate dropped to around £120 or not get the work. He jacked it in and took on a much better higher paid job.

You do know that the Polish workers are disgruntled, apparently the Romanians are undercutting thier pay rate! You mention the minimum pay rate, if it hadn't been the pressure on pay rates from unskilled workers flooding our job market that minimum wage would be much higher now.
You are telling me the pay rates at the lower end of the job market are not suppressed! I invite you to talk to those workers who have not seen a pay increase in 8 years or so. Employers get away with this thanks to an oversupply of workers, I am talking the big companies, the ones that employ thousands of workers and treat them all like st.

Your analogy with Ireland is not at all representative with the current situation. The Irish were what were termed as navies or bottom end labour on building sites and other infrastructure such as roads building. Very welcome too as the UK were rebuilding following the war years.

Looking at the NHS, wage pressure has come from Government financial cutbacks, it couldn't function without immigrants, many of high calibre doctors, nurses as well as ancillary staff.

However, the Country simply cannot sustain the level of immigration the Government has allowed (under eu laws) and for this reason many Brexiteers, myself included , have had enough. like I said at the outset of the discussion, if UK workers had options to enrich their lives in many eu Countries I am sure they would take it. The fact is immigrants see the UK as a land of plenty, which it is, but we have run out of room.

I call bs on qualified sparky for 120 a day. You made that up. I live in Nhamptonshire and we can't get sparky, or any trade for that matter, for less than £250 a day. You should be grateful to immigrants if they provided, obviously needed, push, for your son to get a better job, shouldn't you? I'd imagine you want good things for him.
If someone can't get payrise in 8 years, it's their own fault. No jobs in your area? On your bike.
Or you can sit on your fat ass, watch Jeremy Kile and bh and moan about 'them immigrants'.
UK workers have an option to 'enrich' their lives in many EU countries. To do that require an effort.
I want unskilled work to be paid minimum wage. Want more money? Get a skill.
We have two British guys who were working as labourers before joining us. They are now doing data cabling. Exceptionally hard working by any standards, nothing is too much to ask, picked necessary skills in no time and doing well for themselves. Every single year they had inflation-beating pay rises.

[crankedup]

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

f
I have thrown in a compromise because we are never going to agree the basics.

Ok, trade rates fluctuate, but I am talking about a long term shift pattern down regarding pay rates for many trades. Our lad was a qualified sparky, he has seen his rate come under severe pressure. £200 day rate dropped to around £120 or not get the work. He jacked it in and took on a much better higher paid job.

You do know that the Polish workers are disgruntled, apparently the Romanians are undercutting thier pay rate! You mention the minimum pay rate, if it hadn't been the pressure on pay rates from unskilled workers flooding our job market that minimum wage would be much higher now.
You are telling me the pay rates at the lower end of the job market are not suppressed! I invite you to talk to those workers who have not seen a pay increase in 8 years or so. Employers get away with this thanks to an oversupply of workers, I am talking the big companies, the ones that employ thousands of workers and treat them all like st.

Your analogy with Ireland is not at all representative with the current situation. The Irish were what were termed as navies or bottom end labour on building sites and other infrastructure such as roads building. Very welcome too as the UK were rebuilding following the war years.

Looking at the NHS, wage pressure has come from Government financial cutbacks, it couldn't function without immigrants, many of high calibre doctors, nurses as well as ancillary staff.

However, the Country simply cannot sustain the level of immigration the Government has allowed (under eu laws) and for this reason many Brexiteers, myself included , have had enough. like I said at the outset of the discussion, if UK workers had options to enrich their lives in many eu Countries I am sure they would take it. The fact is immigrants see the UK as a land of plenty, which it is, but we have run out of room.

I call bs on qualified sparky for 120 a day. You made that up. I live in Nhamptonshire and we can't get sparky, or any trade for that matter, for less than £250 a day. You should be grateful to immigrants if they provided, obviously needed, push, for your son to get a better job, shouldn't you? I'd imagine you want good things for him.
If someone can't get payrise in 8 years, it's their own fault. No jobs in your area? On your bike.
Or you can sit on your fat ass, watch Jeremy Kile and bh and moan about 'them immigrants'.
UK workers have an option to 'enrich' their lives in many EU countries. To do that require an effort.
I want unskilled work to be paid minimum wage. Want more money? Get a skill.
We have two British guys who were working as labourers before joining us. They are now doing data cabling. Exceptionally hard working by any standards, nothing is too much to ask, picked necessary skills in no time and doing well for themselves. Every single year they had inflation-beating pay rises.

Trolling of the highest order ^^^^^^^^
I'm not even bothering to bite.

[jjlynn27]

crankedup said:

Trolling of the highest order ^^^^^^^^
I'm not even bothering to bite.

So predictable. 'I have nothing, so I'll just call trolling and hope it goes away'.

[Murph7355]

crankedup said:

Trolling of the highest order ^^^^^^^^
I'm not even bothering to bite.

It's not really though crankedup. It seems quite sensible (despite jj being a Remain voter ).

I voted Leave and do think better control is needed on immigration. But the problem isn't one dimensional.

We have to get the indigenous accepting that they're low skilled and taking the work some immigrants are happy to do.

I'm not entirely convinced the nmw is depressed as a result of immigration. To be honest I'm not convinced a "nmw" is the best foil to wanting to avoid "slave labour" but that sort of argument was lost years ago and all parties now use it like the NHS. Along with "poverty".

I do think immigration in pockets of the country is a serious problem and very much not beneficial regardless of what national averages suggest, but again if the indigenous took the work there'd be no need for immigrant labour in these job classes.

The problem is more likely to be handouts in the hierarchy of income. Like jj, I believe unskilled labour should be at the bottom of the pay hierarchy. But non-labour of any type should be well below that. I think this is our biggest issue right now.

[dandarez]

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

Trolling of the highest order ^^^^^^^^
I'm not even bothering to bite.

So predictable. 'I have nothing, so I'll just call trolling and hope it goes away'.

AND what is this Northamptonshire firm Mr Lynnee that does cabling, and its new workers get year on year inflation busting wage rises for EU green energy, Mr Troll?

Northamptonshire? I know it well. I call 'cobblers!'

Pull the other branch, it's got twigs on it. And they've just snapped!

[B'stard Child]

Murph7355 said:

crankedup said:

Trolling of the highest order ^^^^^^^^
I'm not even bothering to bite.

It's not really though crankedup. It seems quite sensible (despite jj being a Remain voter ).

I voted Leave and do think better control is needed on immigration. But the problem isn't one dimensional.

We have to get the indigenous accepting that they're low skilled and taking the work some immigrants are happy to do.

For less money than benefits........ I'm not sure that's gonna work

[KrissKross]

jjlynn27 said:

I call bs on qualified sparky for 120 a day. You made that up. I live in Nhamptonshire and we can't get sparky, or any trade for that matter, for less than £250 a day.

Trades people have very good instincts, they always double their prices for people they don't like.

[alfie2244]

KrissKross said:

jjlynn27 said:

I call bs on qualified sparky for 120 a day. You made that up. I live in Nhamptonshire and we can't get sparky, or any trade for that matter, for less than £250 a day.

Trades people have very good instincts, they always double their prices for people they don't like.

Alternatively perhaps they knew of his passion for all things EU and they were quoting him in Euros?

[KrissKross]

alfie2244 said:

KrissKross said:

jjlynn27 said:

I call bs on qualified sparky for 120 a day. You made that up. I live in Nhamptonshire and we can't get sparky, or any trade for that matter, for less than £250 a day.

Trades people have very good instincts, they always double their prices for people they don't like.

Alternatively perhaps they knew of his passion for all things EU and they were quoting him in Euros?

Euros or magic beans, all the same these days.