I love the EU because...
Discussion
digimeistter said:
JawKnee said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The UK has never received a single net penny from the EU, as the UK has always paid far more into EU coffers, than it has ever received, and this has been the position for over 40 years.
You do realise the net benefit of being part of the union is greater than the cost of our membership? If you don't yet, you soon will. If the EU is so good for the UK, the majority of the voting public would have voted to remain.....Only the did not.
Hoofy said:
Craziness. My parents met in this country and they came from outside Europe!
I'm crazy because I am grateful that freedom of movement meant I both met and was able to stay with my girlfriend of the last twenty or so years? I fail to see how my statement was even controversial let alone crazy. Being in the EU has, entirely by chance, shaped some fairly major parts of my life - my family first and foremost. Should I ignore that, change my mind and prefer to be out of it?Vocal Minority said:
Again....someone was employing me..... and also liverally wiberally wishy washy principal
(As an aside - this is something I find confusing. I voted remain (obviously), but as the referendum says leave, I'm not disputing it. I would actually feel pretty uncomfortable with it being blocked to be honest. But some people still seem to take it personally that remainers haven't been converted to leavers in the wake of the referendum... they won, why do they need to squeeze some sort of confession?!)
So the visiting thing is not an issue then. As for work, well so you'll maybe have to fill in a form in future. Sorry. It aint, in my view, worth the loss of money and sovereignty to make it easier for a tiny minority of UK citizens to do a couple of day's work abroad now and again.(As an aside - this is something I find confusing. I voted remain (obviously), but as the referendum says leave, I'm not disputing it. I would actually feel pretty uncomfortable with it being blocked to be honest. But some people still seem to take it personally that remainers haven't been converted to leavers in the wake of the referendum... they won, why do they need to squeeze some sort of confession?!)
Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 16:16
Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 16:19
Pan Pan Pan said:
JawKnee said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The UK has never received a single net penny from the EU, as the UK has always paid far more into EU coffers, than it has ever received, and this has been the position for over 40 years.
You do realise the net benefit of being part of the union is greater than the cost of our membership? If you don't yet, you soon will. I recall trying to explain it to you at the time, but you could never see past the narrow net money transfer point.
Just because you never seemed to understand the explanation, doesn't mean it wasn't outlined.
You could debate the point and its validity but it is not correct to say the case was never made - it was.
CrutyRammers said:
Vocal Minority said:
Again....someone was employing me..... and also liverally wiberally wishy washy principal
(As an aside - this is something I find confusing. I voted remain (obviously), but as the referendum says leave, I'm not disputing it. I would actually feel pretty uncomfortable with it being blocked to be honest. But some people still seem to take it personally that remainers haven't been converted to leavers in the wake of the referendum... they won, why do they need to squeeze some sort of confession?!)
So the visiting thing is not an issue then. As for work, well so you'll maybe have to fill in a form in future. Sorry. It aint, in my view, worth the loss of money and sovereignty to make it easier for a tiny minority of UK citizens to do a couple of day's work abroad now and again.(As an aside - this is something I find confusing. I voted remain (obviously), but as the referendum says leave, I'm not disputing it. I would actually feel pretty uncomfortable with it being blocked to be honest. But some people still seem to take it personally that remainers haven't been converted to leavers in the wake of the referendum... they won, why do they need to squeeze some sort of confession?!)
Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 16:16
Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 22 March 16:19
I am not trying to change anyone's minds - Im accepting the result - it I what it is.
You wanted to leave. Fine. You got your way.
Why can I just not be left with my opinion. Why does every brexiteer still want to tell remainers they are wrong, despite getting their way?! Do you not feel like you have won until we beg your forgiveness for disagreeing?
JawKnee said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
JawKnee said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The UK has never received a single net penny from the EU, as the UK has always paid far more into EU coffers, than it has ever received, and this has been the position for over 40 years.
You do realise the net benefit of being part of the union is greater than the cost of our membership? If you don't yet, you soon will. Perhaps it is because you simply cannot. I have yet to see anyone produce any facts on how being in the EU is good for the UK as a whole, only vague nebulous assertions, that being in the EU is good for the UK.
Tell that to the UK fishermen, or those who lost their jobs in the UK steel, aluminium, and cement and Ford vehicle manufacturing industries, and see what sort of response you get. You might need to add Vauxhall to the list of UK industries threatened by the EU.
Being in the EU didn't help much in 2008 did it, If the EU was so economically all powerful, it would have protected (all) its people from the economic downturn, but it did not, and in many ways it was in a worse position than the UK, Tell us how good the EU has been for Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and yes even France, amongst other countries, struggling with the rules that the EU has imposed on it. Tell us why over three hundred thousand EU nationals are trying to get INTO the UK and OUT of the EU every year. Tell us why the EU is so desperate to extract billions from the UK, because they know without its second greatest net contributor of funds into its coffers it will be f*cked probably in just a few years. Your support of the corrupt, failing, money grasping, non democratic monster that the EU has become is really quite strange.
///ajd said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
JawKnee said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The UK has never received a single net penny from the EU, as the UK has always paid far more into EU coffers, than it has ever received, and this has been the position for over 40 years.
You do realise the net benefit of being part of the union is greater than the cost of our membership? If you don't yet, you soon will. I recall trying to explain it to you at the time, but you could never see past the narrow net money transfer point.
Just because you never seemed to understand the explanation, doesn't mean it wasn't outlined.
You could debate the point and its validity but it is not correct to say the case was never made - it was.
I am just one person that you, and the remainers and the EU was unable to convince, regarding the benefits of the UK of being in the EU. Even after over 40 years of membership. Clearly you and Camorons government, and all the other remainers were not able to convince the majority of UK voters that being in the EU was good for the UK. Hence the UK is leaving the EU. If the EU had really been any good, for the UK, and had been able to make a decent case for remaining in the EU, the vote would have gone the other way, clearly they were not able to do this. Do you ever not wonder why?
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 22 March 23:57
Pan Pan Pan said:
///ajd said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
JawKnee said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The UK has never received a single net penny from the EU, as the UK has always paid far more into EU coffers, than it has ever received, and this has been the position for over 40 years.
You do realise the net benefit of being part of the union is greater than the cost of our membership? If you don't yet, you soon will. I recall trying to explain it to you at the time, but you could never see past the narrow net money transfer point.
Just because you never seemed to understand the explanation, doesn't mean it wasn't outlined.
You could debate the point and its validity but it is not correct to say the case was never made - it was.
I am just one person that you, and the remainers and the EU was unable to convince, regarding the benefits of the UK of being in the EU. Even after over 40 years of membership. Clearly you and Camorons government, and all the other remainers were not able to convince the majority of UK voters that being in the EU was good for the UK. Hence the UK is leaving the EU. If the EU had really been any good, for the UK, and had been able to make a decent case for remaining in the EU, the vote would have gone the other way, clearly they were not able to do this. Do ever you not wonder why?
Nothing in the run up to the referendum convinced me that voting leave was the wrong option
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am just one person that you, and the remainers and the EU was unable to convince, regarding the benefits of the UK of being in the EU. Even after over 40 years of membership. Clearly you and Camorons government, and all the other remainers were not able to convince the majority of UK voters that being in the EU was good for the UK. Hence the UK is leaving the EU. If the EU had really been any good, for the UK, and had been able to make a decent case for remaining in the EU, the vote would have gone the other way, clearly they were not able to do this. Do you ever not wonder why?
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 22 March 23:57
///ajd said:
They did show this.
I recall trying to explain it to you at the time, but you could never see past the narrow net money transfer point.
Just because you never seemed to understand the explanation, doesn't mean it wasn't outlined.
You could debate the point and its validity but it is not correct to say the case was never made - it was.
Mobile phone roaming, wasn't it?I recall trying to explain it to you at the time, but you could never see past the narrow net money transfer point.
Just because you never seemed to understand the explanation, doesn't mean it wasn't outlined.
You could debate the point and its validity but it is not correct to say the case was never made - it was.
SKP555
I voted remain but had no love at all for the EU and its institutions. I think the people wearing blue hats were a tiny handful, more for media appearance than anything else.
But in terms of the 'outpouring' of grief following the referendum, I think there are a number of potential reasons for this. (I am sure there are thousands of reasons but these are ones my colleagues/friends/circle mentioned).
1. The loss of easy access to live and work in 27+ other countries, especially for future children. I think some people were more outraged that this effect was decided by many who didn't want such facilities for themselves, but were happy to deny it for others.
2. The decision made by many people mostly unaffected by immigration to vote leave. Particularly an issue in the southern home counties where some areas with almost no immigrants still voted in favour of leave.
3. The age factor. I think this one really made people angry - some people resented the idea that swathes of people with only a few years to live were making decisions that would affect younger people for many more years than it would affect them. Not a factor at general elections as there's another one in 5 years, but with the EU referendum this was a decision for life.
4. The business growth argument - most colleagues and business contacts like the ease with which trade with EU partners, clients, suppliers and business units was done. Same rules, no visas, little/no tariffs. And for recruitment - a massively wider talent pool to choose from.
5. The culture argument. One I'm quite sympathetic to. I love the explosion in foreign culture in the UK now. So much choice of restaurants, cafes, art etc. I love roast beef and an ale at the pub, but I like it mixed with some Portuguese cakes and Polish beer.
So to answer your OP - it's not about love for the EU, it was more about what some people feared they might/will lose.
I voted remain but had no love at all for the EU and its institutions. I think the people wearing blue hats were a tiny handful, more for media appearance than anything else.
But in terms of the 'outpouring' of grief following the referendum, I think there are a number of potential reasons for this. (I am sure there are thousands of reasons but these are ones my colleagues/friends/circle mentioned).
1. The loss of easy access to live and work in 27+ other countries, especially for future children. I think some people were more outraged that this effect was decided by many who didn't want such facilities for themselves, but were happy to deny it for others.
2. The decision made by many people mostly unaffected by immigration to vote leave. Particularly an issue in the southern home counties where some areas with almost no immigrants still voted in favour of leave.
3. The age factor. I think this one really made people angry - some people resented the idea that swathes of people with only a few years to live were making decisions that would affect younger people for many more years than it would affect them. Not a factor at general elections as there's another one in 5 years, but with the EU referendum this was a decision for life.
4. The business growth argument - most colleagues and business contacts like the ease with which trade with EU partners, clients, suppliers and business units was done. Same rules, no visas, little/no tariffs. And for recruitment - a massively wider talent pool to choose from.
5. The culture argument. One I'm quite sympathetic to. I love the explosion in foreign culture in the UK now. So much choice of restaurants, cafes, art etc. I love roast beef and an ale at the pub, but I like it mixed with some Portuguese cakes and Polish beer.
So to answer your OP - it's not about love for the EU, it was more about what some people feared they might/will lose.
munky said:
Why did you choose the word "love"? For most remainers it's a logical decision that weighs the pros against the cons, and finding that for them, the pros outweigh the cons.
If there's an emotional response from some, that still doesn't mean "love". It means that they begrudge certain existing rights likely being taken away by a slim majority that in their opinion are one or more of: insular and inward-looking, nationalistic/xenophobic, under-educated, rural & backward looking, or just old and grumpy. Or, that they consider themselves European before British. I know people that consider themselves to be European citizens, probably because they have lived and worked in continental Europe for many years, with children that are multi-lingual and more "worldly" than (most of) their peers at home who never leave these shores unless it's on a package holiday to Benidorm to eat fish & chips. At the other end of the scale, some people consider themselves to be (for example) Cornish before British. Would we all be better off if the UK was split into individual sovereign counties? I don't know of anyone that seriously thinks so, but some probably do.
For the logical thinkers, the pros and cons have been listed and well discussed already, I am sure. But you're not asking about them.
Yes it's the emotional response I am interested in. As i said it was much stronger than I expected. If there's an emotional response from some, that still doesn't mean "love". It means that they begrudge certain existing rights likely being taken away by a slim majority that in their opinion are one or more of: insular and inward-looking, nationalistic/xenophobic, under-educated, rural & backward looking, or just old and grumpy. Or, that they consider themselves European before British. I know people that consider themselves to be European citizens, probably because they have lived and worked in continental Europe for many years, with children that are multi-lingual and more "worldly" than (most of) their peers at home who never leave these shores unless it's on a package holiday to Benidorm to eat fish & chips. At the other end of the scale, some people consider themselves to be (for example) Cornish before British. Would we all be better off if the UK was split into individual sovereign counties? I don't know of anyone that seriously thinks so, but some probably do.
For the logical thinkers, the pros and cons have been listed and well discussed already, I am sure. But you're not asking about them.
oyster said:
some people resented the idea that swathes of people with only a few years to live were making decisions that would affect younger people for many more years than it would affect them.
Some may well have thought that.Politicians in the Commons and Lords have an average age of 60 as near as dammit. They're hardly swathes but they have vastly greater ongoing influence on the future lives of young people. Under 30? State Pension at 70 is on the cards. And the rest!
I'd rather have this situstion than allow the NUS to run our parliamentary democracy.
In any case, the life expectancy at age 50 (HoC average age) is about 30 years and at 70 (HoL average close enough) it's around 15 years. Arguably more than 'a few' years in both cases. Some won't be spared that long but then, inevitably, the same applies to younger voters.
Overall, the age factor isn't a particularly strong argument.
gruffalo said:
The same can be said for the leave argument, Econmics, human rights , etc!
It depends on your perspective.
No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.It depends on your perspective.
4x4Tyke said:
gruffalo said:
The same can be said for the leave argument, Econmics, human rights , etc!
It depends on your perspective.
No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.It depends on your perspective.
The people decided it was time to try something/anything else.
here we goooo!
4x4Tyke said:
No it cannot, the economy has suffered and will suffer more, we will all lose rights and security will be diminished to boot. All over an irrational hatred of foreigners.
So is the emotional response, anger and sadness purely a reaction to what you believe to be an irrational decision rather than an actual emotional attachment to the EU itself?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff