House of Commons shooting?

[Derek Smith]

BertieWooster said:

Is it too much to hope that, for this incident, the IPCC will very quickly conclude that the shooting was justified rather than dragging things on for months?

Can you imagine the response of people on here, such as [enter the name of your least favourite normal suspect here] if this was allowed?

To be fair, the processes must not only be gone through, they must be seen to have been gone through. This is a shooting dead of a member of the public and must be treated in exactly the same as any other.

It's to be expected.

[Disastrous]

bmw535i said:

Disastrous said:

I'm pretty sure I do.

Maybe just accept that I don't think you can put a price on liberty and leave it at that?

Fair enough

Cheers!

[rscott]

Stickyfinger said:

rscott said:

The infamous survey for Channel 4. Where they only included Muslims who live in areas where over 20% of the population are Muslim because it was too expensive to travel further? That simple cost saving meant they excluded 50% of the UK population and a disproportionate number of those who are more likely to have integrated more.

http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/muslims-and-isla... tend to be more wideranging and larger sample base surveys.

But still a massive number......

What is? The 100,000 you claimed were surveyed? It might be, but the actual number surveyed was 1,081.

[Derek Smith]

loughran said:

Agreed, the BBC are practically feasting on it. I had to turn Radio 4's Today programme off this morning, first time ever.

And yet you came onto here!

It's news. It is what they, and all the other broadcasters, do. Remember too that not all people can see rolling news and will switch on to update themselves.

There's an awful lot of space to fill.

[bitchstewie]

Stickyfinger said:

bhstewie said:

Probably the same reason I didn't ask the Muslim guy who sits behind me at work to apologise or go on a protest march - because he's a normal bloke and what happened is nothing to do with him.

There is a good chance of it however...

A study of 100,ooo said

52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal, compared to 22% of non-Muslim Britons. Nearly half believe it is unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children. At the same time, almost a third (31%) of British Muslims think polygamy should be legalized. Among 18-to-24-year-olds, 35% think it is acceptable to have more than one wife.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-mu...

Edited by Stickyfinger on Thursday 23 March 17:24

Ignoring the points about the possible bias of the poll, let's assume it's accurate.

What's that got to do with why the chap at work should feel any need to apologise or march because of what happened yesterday?

[Disastrous]

MrNoisy said:

Disastrous said:

Why on earth do you care about condemnations from the people who aren't terrorists??

I'd much rather hear IS saying they're going to give it up than a bunch of unconnected people saying "yeah, they shouldn't be doing that..."

What on earth does it achieve?

Because it would reassure an awful lot of people whilst also disarming those who seek to use Islam as a weapon. Why do you think hard liners seek to increase division and focus on differences? It would build bridges in communities and the nation for sure.

I doubt ISIS are likely to do as you say, they seem quite committed to their cause.

Only people who are stupid enough to think all Muslims are terrorists. Why on earth should they have to appease them?

Will you apologise to Muslim countries for British or US military interventions? Why not? It might build bridges...

And of course IS won't say they'll stop, but as they're the ones doing it, they're the on,y ones I really care about.

Nice Mr Choudray down the street condemning it carries approximately the same weight as my mother doing so. It's utterly irrelevant as these people aren't the perpetrators. Unless you think they actually are? In which case, why would they condemn them??

[Old Tyke]

rscott said:

Old Tyke said:

rscott said:

Serious response - there have been many protest marches where Muslims condemn the actions of the extremists, but for some reason they aren't covered by the mainstream media. Wonder why that might be...

The media can't cover something that never happens.

Like this?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/muslims-march...
or this
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/london-ashur...

So a mere 3000 in 2015 and a handful (from the pics) in 2016? Yes, that's really going to make a difference. I also see you carefully forgot to mention that this protest was specifically in name of one of their own being killed. Where are all the protests over their own people carrying out mass murders of white European's?

[rscott]

Old Tyke said:

rscott said:

Old Tyke said:

rscott said:

Serious response - there have been many protest marches where Muslims condemn the actions of the extremists, but for some reason they aren't covered by the mainstream media. Wonder why that might be...

The media can't cover something that never happens.

Like this?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/muslims-march...
or this
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/london-ashur...

So a mere 3000 in 2015 and a handful (from the pics) in 2016? Yes, that's really going to make a difference. I also see you carefully forgot to mention that this protest was specifically in name of one of their own being killed. Where are all the protests over their own people carrying out mass murders of white European's?

The 3000 who went on a march you claim never happens..

What else are you babbling about? Read the huffpo article. It's a holy day observed for 2 different reasons (Shia - death of Muhammed's grandson, Sunnis- Moses parting the Red Sea and saving the Israelites).
They march to mark the holy day and protest against ISIS - it's obvious they're doing it to try and make it clear that they don't consider ISIS part of their Muslim faith.


Just like the many Muslim scholars who wrote the Letter to Baghdadi. It was an open letter to ISIS condemning them and explaining how their actions contradicted the teachings of the religion they allege to be fighting for. ( https://www.rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-isl... & http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-sc... ) .
Muslim clerics have issued fatwas against ISIS too.

Many Muslims simply don't see ISIS as part of their religion.

[Vaud]

bmw535i said:

Vaud said:

So your suggestion is indefinite internment (without trial)?

Yes, if they encourage extreme acts of violence.

So...

“However, he was known to police and has a range of previous convictions for assaults, including GBH, possession of offensive weapons and public order offences.

“His first conviction was in November 1983 for criminal damage and his last conviction was in December 2003 for possession of a knife.

“He has not been convicted for any terrorism offences."


So internment would not have worked in this case?

[bitchstewie]

Old Tyke said:

So a mere 3000 in 2015 and a handful (from the pics) in 2016? Yes, that's really going to make a difference. I also see you carefully forgot to mention that this protest was specifically in name of one of their own being killed. Where are all the protests over their own people carrying out mass murders of white European's?

What number would make you happy?

And please stop and think about the "mass murders of white European's" comment - do you genuinely think that in any of these attacks the attacker(s) swerved out of the way or tried to avoid harming anyone who wasn't "white European"?

[Derek Smith]

Stickyfinger said:

Colonial said:

White people aren't terrorists. They suffer from mental illness.

So all the IRA terrorists where mental were they ?................ridiculous attempt at "racial comment" but your normal method of switching out the debate.

Psychopaths perhaps?

From Wiki:

Psychopathy, sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy, is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterised by persistent antisocial behaviour, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.

Remind you of anyone who's recently died?

[MrNoisy]

Disastrous said:

Only people who are stupid enough to think all Muslims are terrorists. Why on earth should they have to appease them?

Will you apologise to Muslim countries for British or US military interventions? Why not? It might build bridges...

And of course IS won't say they'll stop, but as they're the ones doing it, they're the on,y ones I really care about.

Nice Mr Choudray down the street condemning it carries approximately the same weight as my mother doing so. It's utterly irrelevant as these people aren't the perpetrators. Unless you think they actually are? In which case, why would they condemn them??

Wow, ok.

I think you may have misunderstood what i'm saying or you have a bit of bias. I'm not saying anything contentious or suggesting muslims should apologise.

I'm not suggesting you have to walk down the street with your underpants on your head denouncing your faith.

I'm suggesting that maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of muslims (who are super nice peace loving people) can't express their true feelings about what is happening because their faith forbids it.

If there were a little more vocal approval of the West, it's values and it's beliefs from these communities then maybe, just maybe communities would come together a bit more and it would disarm the divisional tactics of the 'very limited' number of people who are (incorrectly) waging war in the name of Islam.

I think what i'm saying (however fanciful) is actually quite nice.

You sound a bit 'anti-western'. Is that fair to say?

[Old Tyke]

rscott said:

What are you babbling about? Read the huffpo article. It's a holy day observed for 2 different reasons (Shia - death of Muhammed's grandson, Sunnis- Moses parting the Red Sea and saving the Israelites).
They march to mark the holy day and protest against ISIS - it's obvious they're doing it to try and make it clear that they don't consider ISIS part of their Muslim faith.
Just like the many Muslim scholars who wrote the Letter to Baghdadi. It was an open letter to ISIS condemning them and explaining how their actions contradicted the teachings of the religion they allege to be fighting for. ( https://www.rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-isl... & http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-sc... ) .
Muslim clerics have issued fatwas against ISIS too.

Many Muslims simply don't see ISIS as part of their religion.

Right, so nothing to do with protesting about their own people mass murdering innocent white European's then. Thanks for the confirmation.

I wonder how long it will be until you're spouting your usual rubbish about them being misunderstood and how we mustn't confuse them with "moderate Muslims".

[Rude-boy]

bhstewie said:

Ignoring the points about the possible bias of the poll, let's assume it's accurate.

What's that got to do with why the chap at work should feel any need to apologise or march because of what happened yesterday?

/Devil's advocate mode on.

If a woman were to say directly to me or within my earshot that "All men are potential Rapists" I would call her out on it and explain to her in most vociferous terms that whilst any man has the equipment to rape it is a massive slur on men to suggest that we are all potential rapists and would be most earnest in trying to help them see the utter stupidity of their statement. I would feel no need to apologise for the actions of a man who was a rapist as I would very much single them out as a disgusting and vile human being who had given up any right to call them self a Man.

[Old Tyke]

bhstewie said:

Old Tyke said:

So a mere 3000 in 2015 and a handful (from the pics) in 2016? Yes, that's really going to make a difference. I also see you carefully forgot to mention that this protest was specifically in name of one of their own being killed. Where are all the protests over their own people carrying out mass murders of white European's?

What number would make you happy?

And please stop and think about the "mass murders of white European's" comment - do you genuinely think that in any of these attacks the attacker(s) swerved out of the way or tried to avoid harming anyone who wasn't "white European"?

How many incidents have there been in Europe of Islamic Extremists storming into temples with guns and knives and mass murdering their own people?

[g4ry13]

This picture has been going around apparently (with various captions) - not sure whether that's fake, some say it is and others that it's not and they've seen other angles of it too.

[p1stonhead]

g4ry13 said:

This picture has been going around apparently (with various captions) - not sure whether that's fake, some say it is and others that it's not and they've seen other angles of it too.

It's not fake but ridiculous people are using it for their point making. Who knows why in that thousandth of a second she appeared like that in a photograph.

[rscott]

g4ry13 said:

This picture has been going around apparently (with various captions) - not sure whether that's fake, some say it is and others that it's not and they've seen other angles of it too.

Yeah, for some reason the sites circulating it seem to 'forget' the very similar one of the woman not wearing a headscarf walking past. Nor the white guy with a beard using a selfie stick to get a photo of himselft with ambulances in the background.

[Europa1]

g4ry13 said:

This picture has been going around apparently (with various captions) - not sure whether that's fake, some say it is and others that it's not and they've seen other angles of it too.

It's done the rounds on this thread already. Another caption could be "Person phoning loved ones to let them know she is alright" - who knows what the circumstances were.

[bitchstewie]

Old Tyke said:

How many incidents have there been in Europe of Islamic Extremists storming into temples with guns and knives and mass murdering their own people?

I'm going to guess none.

That won't change the fact that PC Palmer could just as easily have been PC Kahn and the attacker would still have stabbed him.